Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[Joe Street]

Hi Bob; Sorry for the cheap shot I thought you would take it as good natured humour which is the way it was intended. Well I'm no neurologist but I thought the sensory motor cortex is where a lot of that sensation stuff goes on.  I know this because my daughter has partial seizures in that very area and she experiences pain every time she has a seizure. If accupuncture results in higher activation thresholds ( ie deactivation) in that area does that not mean effectively - anaesthesia? That was how I understood the paper but perhaps I have it all wrong. Anyways I felt it WAS the serious support for my argument that you asked for. The other comment re the herb cure was just added as an offhand remark, again with humour, not intended to change the subject or run from anything, as I said I felt I had a strong reference as it was. Cheers Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob! I like the way you cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the sham group .....here "However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex." I edited at this point as the following does not describe the aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites. Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that acupuncture works as an anesthetic. BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make more money writing historical fiction for bushco.... please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary No I haven't had surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic. But I do have a testimonial about how a chinese herbalist You're changing the subject Joe. I have yet to see you respond to my calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for anesthesia in major surgery. Come on, where the support for your claim. cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6 months and western treatments were worse than ineffective. But I know you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that time. LMAO. OK OK. lets just drop the subject I guess. We each have our own viewpoints and leave it at that. we already quite herbs but now you bring them back. The subject is proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery. A pretty simple premise Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/00000016/00000004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lot....none of them are terrorists that I know of....lol) that lots of surgical procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 you show me what you have. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Ever been under general anaesthesia? yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb" Remember how you felt when you came around? groggy Did you puke? no Like the worst hangover you ever had? not at all Now you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have to go get references for this? you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how it works. It's a waste of time for something so obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two to support your claim? Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; snip explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with anaesthetic. ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial please. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

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