Hello Bob > > ... until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable > > side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't just > > happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect > > either, would they now. > >actually some may be. The nocebo effect is well known.
Uh, try telling it to a thalidomide "baby". Or his/her mother. Or, with so many tips of so many icebergs to choose from, how about these? For instance. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg54672.html [Biofuel] How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs (The whole series is there in the archives.) Sure, as Robert was saying, vaccinations and antibiotics certainly have their uses - without them how many people would have died of smallpox and polio etc? On the other hand, how many people would have died in the same period without the widespread global use of their traditional medicine systems (which is what the much-maligned "alternatives" mostly are)? More would be dead, many more, hence the rather more than mere lip-service paid to traditional healers by the WHO in 3rd World development work. As Kirk says, once a community has been using a remedy for generations they'll know how effective it is and what the dangerous side-effects might be. Testimonial evidence, yes. Much the same as the way medical science so often has to have its feet pulled out of the fire by the findings of epidemiological studies. So much for test-tubes sans real life in the real world with all its pesky variables and inconvenient interconnections. Both sides have their abuses and abusers. Quackery? How would you describe Bayer's extraordinary attitude in refusing to withdraw the antibiotics used in livestock feed that have led to lethally immune pathogens for which there's now no cure? This danger - now a reality (people are being killed by it) - was first revealed in scientific studies decades ago. Using antibiotics in livestock feed is useless anyway - see the Danish example, for one. No more antibiotics, no problems either, in a large national poultry industry. True science? Am I now to be labelled "anti-science" in this futile attempt to draw a clear line where there can only be grey areas? Best Keith >I am still left with a concern: if acupuncture really can be used in >place of anesthesia, why isn't its use more widespread, particularly >in western, or at least (US)for profit medicine? As far as I am aware, >malpractice insurance is the highest for anesthesiologists, for the >reasons mention here before- sedating a person is a risky business. If >you could achieve the same sedation without drugs and therefore side >effects, the practice of medicine should be much cheaper, right? which >means more profit right? Why don't we hear of more anesthesiologists >using this technique? Or how about dentists. A little girl died in >Chicago, due to negligence I presume, during a dental procedure >conducted under anesthetic. Ever heard of a root canal done with >acupuncture alone? Just curious > >Keith Addison wrote: > >> could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the > >> placebo effect? > > > > No, speaking from quite extensive experience of it in East Asia. But > > then I suppose that's just a testimonial eh? Actually my experience > > of it was two-sided, both personal and investigating and writing > > about it. It's not just mumbo-jumbo, it has a sound scientific basis > > even though Western (ie allopathic) medicine doesn't see it that way. > > Acupuncture was previously a part of Western medicine, it was used > > quite extensively in both Holland and Italy and probably elsewhere in > > Europe, until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable > > side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't just > > happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect > > either, would they now. > > >actually some may be. The nocebo effect is well known. > >http://skepdic.com/nocebo.html > > > * More than two-thirds of 34 college students developed headaches >when told that a non-existent electrical current passing through their >heads could produce a headache. > * "Japanese researchers tested 57 high school boys for their >sensitivity to allergens. The boys filled out questionnaires about past >experiences with plants, including lacquer trees, which can cause itchy >rashes much as poison oak and poison ivy do. Boys who reported having >severe reactions to the poisonous trees were blindfolded. Researchers >brushed one arm with leaves from a lacquer tree but told the boys they >were chestnut tree leaves. The scientists stroked the other arm with >chestnut tree leaves but said the foliage came from a lacquer tree. >Within minutes the arm the boys believed to have been exposed to the >poisonous tree began to react, turning red and developing a bumpy, itchy >rash. In most cases the arm that had contact with the actual poison did >not react." (Gardiner Morse, "The nocebo effect," Hippocrates, November >1999, Hippocrates.com) > * In the Framingham Heart Study, women who believed they are prone >to heart disease were nearly four times as likely to die as women with >similar risk factors who didn't believe.* (Voelker, Rebecca. "Nocebos >Contribute to a Host of Ills." Journal of the American Medical >Association 275 no. 5 (1996): 345-47. ) [Of course, one might argue that >the women in both groups had good intuitions. The objective risk factors >may have been the same, but subjectively the women knew their bodies >better than the objective tests could reveal.] > * C.K. Meador claimed that people who believe in voodoo may >actually get sick and die because of their belief ("Hex Death: Voodoo >Magic or Persuasion?" Southern Medical Journal 85, no. 3 (1992): 244-47). > * "In one experiment, asthmatic patients breathed in a vapor that >researchers told them was a chemical irritant or allergen. Nearly half >of the patients experienced breathing problems, with a dozen developing >full-blown attacks. They were ìtreatedî with a substance they believed >to be a bronchodilating medicine, and recovered immediately. In >actuality, both the ìirritantî and the ìmedicineî were a nebulized >saltwater solution."* > >Arthur Barsky, a psychiatrist at Boston's Brigham and Women's Hospital, >found in a recent review of the nocebo literature that patient >expectation of adverse effects of treatment or of possible harmful >side-effects of a drug, played a significant role in the outcome of >treatment (Barsky et al. 2002). > >Since patients' beliefs and fears may be generated by just about >anything they come in contact with, it may well be that many things that >are unattended to by many if not most physicians, such as the color of >the pills they give, the type of uniform they wear, the words they use >to give the patient information, the kind of room they place a patient >in for recovery, etc., may be imbued with rich meaning for the patient >and have profound effects for good or for ill on their > > > > > > Best > > > > Keith > > > > > >> D. Mindock wrote: > >>> I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat >on his back > >>> in the OR > >>> with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as > >>> they worked > >>> on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different > >> problems. One > >>> was where > >>> I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while > >>> doing deep knee bends (don't try this) > >>> with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only > >> hobble around. > >>> The doc gave me pain > >>> pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. > >>> After a couple > >>> days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I > >>> saw the size > >>> of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in > >> that first > >>> needle in the knee > >>> I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the >other knee. > >>> He stuck some > >>> more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled >the needles > >>> out. I walked out > >>> of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain > >>> came back, as he said > >>> it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches > >>> and pain pills > >>> which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did > >>> give > >>> permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that > >> success depends > >>> on the skill of the > >>> practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but >are precisely > >>> placed on meridians > >>> and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are > >> targeted depending > >>> on the problem. > >>> These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized > >>> electronic equipment. They really exist. > >>> How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through >highly tuned > >>> perceptual powers. > >>> Peace, D. Mindock > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof > >>> > >>> > >>> Joe Street wrote: > >>>> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: > >>>> > >>>> > >> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/00000016/00000004/art > >> 01145 > >>> much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery > >>> is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a > >>> method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked > >>> with needles. > >>> > >>> "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain > >>> have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary > >>> findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the > >>> pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointÒbrain correlation... > >>> > >>> Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point > >>> Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or > >>> minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject > >>> analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported > >>> distributed pain neuromatrix... > >>> > >>> > >>> what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the > >>> treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have > >>> you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you > >>> know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far > >>> have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not > >>> trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, > >>> consistent with the scientific method. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my > >>>> point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got > >>>> to be better. > >>>> I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lot....none of > >>>> them are terrorists that I know of....lol) that lots of surgical > >>>> procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. > >>>> > >>>> Joe > >>>> > >>>> bob allen wrote: > >>>>> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure > >>>>> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is > >>>>> not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are > >>>>> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it > >>>>> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just >because you > >>>>> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 > >>>>> > >>>>> you show me what you have. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Joe Street wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hey Bob; > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ever been under general anaesthesia? > >>>>>> > >>>>> yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb" > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Remember how you felt when you > >>>>> > >>>>>> came around? > >>>>>> > >>>>> groggy > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Did you puke? > >>>>> no > >>>>> > >>>>> Like the worst hangover you ever had? > >>>>> > >>>>> not at all > >>>>> Now > >>>>> > >>>>>> you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound >isn't gonna be > >>>>>> easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the >brink of death > >>>>>> for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I >really have > >>>>>> to go get references for this? > >>>>>> > >>>>> you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific > >>>>> evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how > >>>>> it works. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> It's a waste of time for something so > >>>>> > >>>>>> obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the >recovery room > >>>>>> last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL > >>>>>> > >>>>> this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as > >>>>> a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two > >>>>> to support your claim? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Joe > >>>>>> > >>>>>> bob allen wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe Street wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Bob; > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> snip > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without > >>>>>>>> anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning >the body with > >>>>>>>> anaesthetic. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim >non-testimonial > >>>>>>> please. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives >(50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > >-- >Bob Allen >http://www.ozarker.org/bob >--------------------------------------------- >Science is what we have learned about how to >keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
