Bob, Perhaps, though I don't believe so. I was skeptical about it, but the pain killer and crutches were getting me down. So when a Korean friend who was familiar with acupuncture said it would cure me quickly, I was primed to go. Maybe traditional science will catch up with this and other even more amazing therapies in alt healing. (You can bet that quackwatch will have acupuncture down as placebo effect at best.) I experienced a non-allopathic method of healing. (One of many.) IMO, western allopathic medicine is best suited for trauma injuries or acute problem like heart attacks, strokes, etc. For chronic illness, optimizing health, alt medicine is far superior. Also for optimizing health. Personal experience is not science. But it is as real as anything can possibly get. In the meantime, I think that medical docs should integrate the placebo effect into their treatments of sick folks. There is no doubt at all that the brain (mind) and every cell in the body are intimately connected. This is where it would be so nice if docs tried to establish a great rapport with the patient. This implies a doc who's truly trying to heal rather than knock out a list of drugs prescript for the person nervously sitting nearby. A lot of people have a trust and respect for their doctor. This makes the attitude of the doc very important. If the doc is sincerely interested in healing, this will tend to help his/her patient's health to improve regardless of the drugs prescribed. To think that the placebo effect is fraud and not medicine is wrong. As you know, it is very real, so why not use it? Peace, D. Mindock
----- Original Message ----- From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the placebo effect? D. Mindock wrote: > I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back > in the OR > with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as > they worked > on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. > One > was where > I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while > doing deep knee bends (don't try this) > with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble > around. > The doc gave me pain > pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. > After a couple > days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I > saw the size > of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that > first > needle in the knee > I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other > knee. > He stuck some > more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles > out. I walked out > of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain > came back, as he said > it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches > and pain pills > which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did > give > permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success > depends > on the skill of the > practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are > precisely > placed on meridians > and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted > depending > on the problem. > These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized > electronic equipment. They really exist. > How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned > perceptual powers. > Peace, D. Mindock > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof > > > Joe Street wrote: >> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: >> >> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/00000016/00000004/art01145 > > much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery > is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a > method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked > with needles. > > "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain > have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary > findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the > pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... > > Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point > Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or > minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject > analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported > distributed pain neuromatrix... > > > what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the > treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. > > > > You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have > you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you > know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far > have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not > trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, > consistent with the scientific method. > > > > >> I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my >> point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got >> to be better. >> I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lot....none of >> them are terrorists that I know of....lol) that lots of surgical >> procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. >> >> Joe >> >> bob allen wrote: >>> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure >>> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is >>> not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are >>> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it >>> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you >>> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, >>> >>> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 >>> >>> you show me what you have. >>> >>> >>> Joe Street wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Bob; >>>> >>>> Ever been under general anaesthesia? >>>> >>> yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb" >>> >>> >>> Remember how you felt when you >>> >>>> came around? >>>> >>> groggy >>> >>> >>> Did you puke? >>> no >>> >>> Like the worst hangover you ever had? >>> >>> not at all >>> Now >>> >>>> you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be >>>> easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death >>>> for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really >>>> have >>>> to go get references for this? >>>> >>> you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific >>> evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how >>> it works. >>> >>> >>> It's a waste of time for something so >>> >>>> obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery >>>> room >>>> last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL >>>> >>> this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as >>> a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two >>> to support your claim? >>> >>> >>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> bob allen wrote: >>>> >>>>> Joe Street wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Bob; >>>>>> >>>> snip >>>> >>>>>> explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without >>>>>> anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with >>>>>> anaesthetic. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim >>>>> non-testimonial >>>>> please. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
