Joe,
What's the word?
I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now ..... on
the edge of my seat, "waiting a shivers" for the results of the castor oil
screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart
is starting to cramp up.
Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive?
If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means
"Sorry, I don't want to talk about it."
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Street
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Tom;
Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last
night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a
difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a 0000 on the dryness
scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor
oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it
won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just
below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules
will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find
out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal
tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed,
heart crossed, hoping to find out.....
Tirah
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Hi Joe,
I didn't follow you when you wrote:
"I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I
think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the
castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water
the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation
through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and
gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments
yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well."
I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor
oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill
the alcohol from the castor oil.
This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot
of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the
alcohol out.
What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively
permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large
volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get
to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor).
Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor
oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would
remain low -------> a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil
to the vapor layer and out.
Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and
castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from "pushing" through the oil
layer into the vapor layer?
Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to
travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur
in living cells).
Maybe I have it all wrong.
You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. "harmonic
mixing" ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt
work ..... nothing dangerous.
Best to you .... don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all
wrong.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Street
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Well Tom;
Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we
discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure
vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting
on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets
inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That
would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating
the seives......a risk I guess.
I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it?
I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the
castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water
the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation
through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and
gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments
yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well.
soon
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Joe,
I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think
it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg .....
problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it.
I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still
and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the
zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the
zeolite.
How do we heat the trap?
I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects ....
some have stalled due to loss of interest .... I've got to rally.
"Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want
to get off the meth....;)"
Ditto
Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as a wake-up
call ...
Good to hear from you
Hope you're on the mend
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Street
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol
Hi Tom;
I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl
esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits
for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about
the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment
with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done
much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get
off the meth....;)
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Kurt,
Thanks for the info.
Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol
production.
Thanks again,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol
It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.
-Kurt
Thomas Kelly wrote:
It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.
Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
Tom
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