From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:54:06 +0900
Hi Terry
>Hi Keith,
>
>I'm not sure how the math works out but you have to take into
consideration
>that methane gas is 23 times more potent as a green house gas then CO2.
I didn't forget that, but shouldn't that mean more cars, not fewer
cars? Also it's not clear when they say "18% of total global
emissions" whether they're referring to methane emissions or total
GHG emissions.
I think UCS usually gets it right, I don't think they were correctly
quoted. But I haven't managed to find the original work at their
website.
>Also the commercial livestock farms use many times more fossil fuels to
>create food than do organic produce farms. Of course the 100 mile diet
is
>important too.
Indeed. To sum up, I think the criticism applies to factory farms,
which are not farms at all, but it doesn't apply to real farming.
Adopting a vegetarian diet is perhaps one alternative to supporting
factory farming, but a better alternative is to support sustainable
farming, which necessarily includes livestock and meat production.
Vegetarianism itself is not a sustainable alternative. As an
individual diet choice perhaps, but not as a farming system.
Thanks - regards
Keith
>Terry Dyck
>
> >From: Keith Addison <keith at journeytoforever.org>
> >Reply-To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org
> >To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
> >Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 19:13:55 +0900
> >
> >Hi Terry
> >
> >Thanks for finding the ref.
> >
> > >Hi Keith,
> > >
> > >You asked for a link to the the UCS quote. It was from the Green
> > >Issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper in Nov. (Vancouver, BC, Can.)
> > >The actual quote was, Methane produced by waste on cattle and hog
> > >farms is as hard on the atmospher as 33 million cars. 18% of total
> > >global emissions.
> >
> >But 33 million cars is only about 15% of the number of vehicles in
> >the US, let alone globally, how can that equal 18% of global
> >emissions?
> >
> >"Cattle and hog farms" means CAFOs, not farms, or at least in the
> >vast majority of cases. I don't think that's the same as what you
> >said, "the total of all livestock on this planet".
> >
> > >>I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry
> > >>33 million cars' worth of GHGs.
> >
> >I still think that. The claim of 18% of global emissions from CAFOs
> >doesn't sound unreasonable, but the cars bit can't be right, seems to
> >me.
> >
> >Thanks Terry.
> >
> >Best
> >
> >Keith
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Terry Dyck
> > >
> > >
> > >>From: Keith Addison <keith at journeytoforever.org>
> > >>Reply-To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org
> > >>To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org
> > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
> > >>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:26:10 +0900
> > >>
> > >>Hello Terry
> > >>
> > >> >Hi Kirk,
> > >> >
> > >> >If all of us did what we should be doing our houses would be one
> > >> >room heated with Geo Thermal, hot water and electricity by solar
and
> > >> >we would walk or bike almost everywere
> > >>
> > >>This:
> > >>
> > >> >and we would be totally Vegan.
> > >>
> > >>... is nonsense, as we've established quite thoroughly many times.
> > >>Please go to the archives and check it out.
> > >>
> > >>There is no way of raising crops sustainably without using livestock
> > >>in the production system. No vegetarian farming system has ever
> > >>survived the test of time.
> > >>
> > >>Please don't argue about it until you've checked it out, no need to
> > >>go over the same old ground yet another time.
> > >>
> > >> >The Union of Concerned Scientists reports that because of the
amount
> > >> >of Methane gas caused from feed lots, etc. that the total of all
> > >> >livestock on this planet is equivalent to taking 33 million cars
of
> > >> >the road.
> > >>
> > >>"Feed lots, etc"? What does the "etc" mean?
> > >>
> > >>I'm sure the amount of GHGs emitted by trees etc is even worse,
> > >>should we cut them all down too?
> > >>
> > >>"Do trees share blame for global warming?"
> > >>http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0119/p13s01-sten.html
> > >>"Globally, living plants may contribute from 10 to 30 percent of
> > >>global methane emissions."
> > >>
> > >>I haven't seen the UCS report you mention, would you give us a
> > >>reference or a link please?
> > >>
> > >>Anyway you're talking about feedlots, CAFOs, Confined Animal Feeding
> > >>Operations, industrialised factory farms. No CAFOs no meat? That's
> > >>the same mistake enviros make when they attack fuel ethanol because
> > >>they don't like Archer Daniel Midlands and Cargill. There are other
> > >>ways of doing things, as we ought to know by now.
> > >>
> > >>There've been a number of high-profile critiques of industrial meat
> > >>production and global warming, this is the main one:
> > >>
> >
>>http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.htm
> > >>Livestock's long shadow - Environmental issues and options
> > >>Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations
> > >>
> > >>Feedlot cattle, pigs and poultry eat industrialised grain, produced
> > >>with high dependence on fossil-fuel inputs and at high environmental
> > >>cost, and the same applies to the CAFO livestock production system
> > >>itself. Check out how carbon-neutral industrialised grain turns out
> > >>to be. Pastured livestock eat forage.
> > >>
> > >>With CAFOs most of the methane emissions result from the manure
> > >>storage, especially with pigs. With pastured livestock, especially
> > >>with rotational pasture, the manure provides the soil fertility to
> > >>produce multiple following crops, displaces the need for fossil-fuel
> > >>based chemical fertilisers, and does so at a healthy profit. Such
> > >>pasture soils sequester very large amounts of carbon.
> > >>
> > >>I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry
> > >>33 million cars' worth of GHGs. Well so what, it doesn't have any
> > >>future anyway, any more than the rest of the industrial agriculture
> > >>disaster does. It's fossil-fuel dependent every step of the way, and
> > >>measured in food miles that comes to a hell of a long way. It'll
bust
> > >>all their bottom-lines when carbon accounting starts hitting the
> > >>global trade it depends on, the insane distribution system, the
> > >>processing. Apart from all of which CAFOs have become a major
> > >>bio-hazard.
> > >>
> > >>No need for it anyway. The future is small, sustainable, family-run
> > >>mixed farms with integrated crop and livestock production, low
input,
> > >>high output, local markets.
> > >>
> > >>Best
> > >>
> > >>Keith
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Terry Dyck
> > >> >
> > >> >>From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren at yahoo.com>
> > >> >>Reply-To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org
> > >> >>To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org
> > >> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
> > >> >>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:45:14 -0800 (PST)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>The message is - It isnt really that important. If it were I
would do
> >it.
> > >> >> So how true is it - at least to him.
> > >> >> If it doent motivate him maybe he knows something we dont.
> > >> >> So of all people to squander energy it shouldnt be him.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> You might want to look into Cripple Creek Coal which he is on
the
> > >> >>board of directors.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Kirk
> > >> >>
> > >> >>Tom Irwin <tomuru at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> Hi Kirk and all,
> > >> >> When the message cannot be attacked then attack the messenger.
Ok,
> > >> >>so Gore doesn´t walk the talk. How many of us do? We try to, but
> > >> >>there is a long way to go for most everyone in the developed
world.
> > >> >>It´s the message that´s inportant, not the man.
> > >> >> Tom Irwin
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>---------------------------------
> > >> >>
> > >> >>From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren at yahoo.com>
> > >> >>Reply-To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org
> > >> >>To: biofuel <Biofuel at sustainablelists.org>
> > >> >>Subject: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
> > >> >>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:57:43 -0800 (PST)
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