Hi again Tom and Pannir >Pannir, > >Tom > I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. > > > > >Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester , making the >reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di >glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better >the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product >quality. > > I understand that removing the glycerol will "pull" the >reaction towards ester formation. Is there a way to remove the >glycerol and "diverse di glcerol byproducts" (by "filtration") >as they form without also removing methanol and caustic? Does >"filtering" refer to something different from simply draining the >glycerine layer?
Our 90-litre processor allows a good proportion (maybe half) of the by-product to drop out and settle, with another proportion of it being recirculated much more slowly than the rest of what's being processed, which keeps that much methanol in action, and the GC tests showed 99+% ester content. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#settle Recirculation is fast in this processor. I add the first-stage methanol (slowly) and let it mix thoroughly with the WVO, which makes it look like milky coffee, and then I pour in 60ml of sulphuric acid at the top, which turns it chalky, and the colour change happens in about one second. So it mixes efficiently, but at the same time lots of by-product drops out as it's being formed. Simple processors that don't seem to allow for this can nonetheless get high-quality results even with single-stage base. So I don't think the reverse reaction from glycerin formation can be that much of a constraint. I can't see a need for multiple or any filtration steps or centrifuging or whatever to remove glycerin. All best Keith > Tom > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Pagandai Pannirselvam >To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process" > > Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , > > From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL > >2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >Chris, > I agree with you when you say > "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to >make any sense.". > > > > Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the results compared to the conventional >process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of >good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of >the BioD production.It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a >poorly written science project as this is because the information >of the novel technological process are valuable , but the >farming community is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely >Keith know well how hard for him to get the new BioD process >information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always >available and here too the same is true .However the project has >good future even for small scale production in farm scale as very >good results have been reported for the product quality of BiOD, >glycerol,recovered alcohol > > > The "New Process" appears to be the two stage acid/base process. >Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids ----> methyl esters. Stage >Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides ----> methyl >esters. > > >Pannnir >>>>> The combined reaction and separation known as >reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of >chemical engineering process engineering subjects.I am sure that l >the small scale production in farm can do benefit using this novel >methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified >if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol > > > > I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. > > > > > >Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester , making the >reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di >glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better >the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product >quality. > > > > I'm also confused about "Distilling" the washed and dried "Crude >Biodiesel" to get "Biodiesel". While it is possible to recover methanol from >the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, >washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would >distill washed and dried BD. > > > Pannirbr >>>> Really we need more information and I can agree >with you. I think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive >distillation to recover back diverse di ,tri esters formed.If you >remember that this process new , the co products need to be >recovered as the catalyst is yet not an perfect one. > > > The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the "New >Process" to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a >1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims >that there is "no stirring" ..... I suspect this is wrong. > > >Pannirbr>>>>>>>>> I think,this is possible , eventhough not >enough information is yet known , if one understand well what is >reactive distillation some patented related with the processare >known one. If you combine distillation and reaction, the products , >alcohol and water are separated simultaneously .Several patented >process does prove that it is possible to get results with out the >use of mechanical agitator's , but thermal energy are used , which >can be recovered , thus the process is designed to be more energy >efficient > > > It says that the "Classic Process" cannot use soy, rapeseed, palm, >coconut, sunflower, jatropa, recycled oil (WVO), or lard ???????? > Wrong again. > > > The acid containing oil as well as the water content are >yet still technical problems , as the transesterification reaction >using alkai catalyst are very sensitive in terms of yield and >quality . > > > It reminds me of a poorly written science project. > > > The project has merit surely , but have very poor content as >they do not wish to share the technical information. There are >several innovations especially the better quality of all the >products , higher recovery , less reaction time , more productivity >, better energy recovery less environmental problems .But I agree >with all the coments here in the list that this much advantage is >needed for the farm scale production not worthy considering the >complexity >In this sense our old JFT two sage still can be gold.Yet some >novel modification can be possible to make more environmentally >friendly our old two stage proven JFT BioD process >We from Academic research will always wish to invent the process , >so that the farmer can also modify to be more productive , the >better the quality of the products totally diferent of academic one. > > I wish also to get the comments as our list has so many members >from several countries , only very few members are involved here in >recent biofuel list discussions..The more younger list members >views , our list leader Keith very balanced view need to make this >topic very long debate .Thus the simple BioD process can be made >possible by participation of all, as the web2 social networking of >this list members words are more powerful and useful to make the >good shape for the green future of new generation bio fuel from >biomass for all the people ,which can be made possible by active >participation of our list members , not by academics only or by >profit oriented big blue company. The new generation biofuel is like >the new wave social web2 , the free open process for several >billions farmer to be free and independent of the big blues >globalised market .This the natural way for green future for all , >where all are included to have the sustainable green fuel . > > > >Kind regards > >Pannirselvam P.V > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Christopher & Jacqueline Tan" ><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:53 AM >Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process" > > > > This website ><http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm>http://www.inet.hr/~jkuf >tine/en/biodizel.htm features a so > > called 'New Process" but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their > > process and it doesn't seem to make any sense. > > > > Anyone care to comment? > > > > Thanks > > Chris > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ><http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists >.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablel >ists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > ><http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org/ >biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > messages): > > ><http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/>http://www. >mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list ><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] ><http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelist >s.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainable >lists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: ><http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org >/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): ><http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/>http://www >.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > > > >-- >Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos >DEQ ñ Departamento de Engenharia QuÌmica >CT ñ Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ñ Natal/RN >Campus Universit·rio. CEP: 59.072-970 ><http://pannirbr.googlepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage>http://pannirbr.goo >glepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage > >3215-3769 ramal 210 >casa 3215-1557 > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
