I can see what you're saying Mike, and I agree, but it has a limited sense. I think you should be more inclusive
Certainly, as you said, "We are all bound to each other and the planet in a grand scheme of interdependence, where what happens to a part affects the whole." We're all in the same lifeboat. However, right now, we don't have the freedom or the independence to make this interdependence a reality, or at least not in our political and economic behaviour. We've become dependent on the wrong things, we're like drug addicts, and as such we deny the interdependence that is our natural state. We have to free ourselves of these inimical influences. Freedom from oppression, from injustice and exploitation, the independence of communities where such freedoms are upheld, and of the individuals that comprise such communites, these are real enough terms, clear, useful, not evil. Where Dawie comes from, and where I also come from, they were extremely real and immediate up until quite recently, and probably still are, if perhaps in a somewhat different way. I don't think Dawie needs to provide any documentation, IMHO. Best Keith >"Freedom" and "Independence"...Obfuscation. > Dawie, I suspect we probably do have the same beef with the >same stuff, but I'm not sure we agree on the reasons for the same >stuff, especially if you can't understand why I want to eliminate >"freedom" and "independence" from the vocabulary. These are sloppy >words, based upon a superficial view of the world. And ultimately >they are used to enslave NOT to "free" or make anyone "independent," >which just can't happen because there IS no "freedom," there IS no >"independence." > You say "I must maintain that these terms, and the ideas that >they embody, are much older than the 'minority who want us to >believe the supposed reality of these words' of which you speak. >Both terms have a rich history in the common tongue, and >consequently a wealth of meanings and senses and associations, some >of which quite contradict others. Especially 'freedom' has such an >abundance of honourable associations that it would be unwise to >reject it for the sake of a recent pernicious sense." Documentation >please. Huge task, I know, but you're the one making this >statement, so I'd like to read your evidence as to such. I'm going >to suggest that the history of these words will reveal their >appearance alongside the rise of the human "community" and >especially leadership who would use the community to further their >personal ends, no matter how many lives their personal ends might >require. > I would also like to assuage your "fear that, if 'freedom' is >susceptible to an evil interpretation, how much moreso might an idea >be that is specifically placed counter to freedom?" Take away >"freedom," reveal the word for the impostor that it is, and there >can be no idea counter to it. > As far as your comments go in the paragraph regarding the >common tongue and buying the meaning etc, no problemo. Not sure >what this has to do with the elimination of "freedom" and >"independence." I stated in an earlier response I have no problem >with and in fact accept "individuality." > So, "Man does not live by bread alone," eh? I much prefer >"Praise Allah, but first tie your camel to a post," a Sufi saying. >And hell yes I would do my level best to stop someone from >strangling folks in the neighborhood (unless the folks they were >strangling were "freedom" and "independence"), but it is NOT my >"freedom" and "independence" I would be risking to stop them...it >would be my "individuality." > References to Schumacher etc, ok. > Next paragraph, about losing left wingers because of some >illogical chain of ideas proceeding from the word "individuality," I >really don't give a damn. If they go that route with the word, then >they deserve the chains they perceive the "imperialists" lock upon >them. The live in fear, not in love. They live in too much concern >for what the Jones's are up to and not in what they should be up to. >When they spend more time keeping the weeds out of their own gardens >and helping their neighbors do same, in other words, maintaining a >healthy environment for the world to grow, there will be no room for >the imperialists. Comprende? > Finally, no, no need to ask "independence of what." There IS >NO "independence" to ask "of what." So I'm not sure what your >"unstated predicate" might be. > These are evil words, Dawie, especially for how they have been >used to turn our attention from reality and enslave humanity to the >extent that we have all the crap being produced that is upsetting >the delicate balance to carry on LIFE, LIFE that is INDIVIDUAL and >INTERDEPENDENT, not "free" and "independent." > Mike DuPree > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Keith Addison" ><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:40 PM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) > > > >I think this stuff is important, but it is somewhat off-topic. It's > >>Keith's call. In any event, Mike, you're most welcome to e-mail me > >>off-list any time. > > > > My call? Off-topic? "Freedom fries", "independence from Middle >East oil", LOL! > > > > I also think it's important, relevant to sustainable living. I tend > > to think nothing's off-topic except bad behaviour. So let's keep it > > on-list. > > > > Best > > > > Keith > > > > > > > >>Hey Mike > >> > >>I think we've probably got the same beef with the same stuff. I've > >>followed your posts about Real ID and other things, and it looks to > >>me like we have very much the same stance on many issues. And it's > >>important to keep questioning our basic assumptions, so it I > >>thoroughly support you also in subjecting the terms "freedom" and > >>"independence" to that sort of scrutiny. It's something I do myself > >>a lot, as you can see, to the endless irritation of many. > >> > >>However, I must maintain that these terms, and the ideas that they > >>embody, are much older than the "minority who want us to believe the > >>supposed reality of these words" of which you speak. Both terms have > >>a rich history in the common tongue, and consequently a wealth of > >>meanings and senses and associations, some of which quite contradict > >>others. Especially "freedom" has such an abundance of honourable > >>associations that it would be unwise to reject it for the sake of > >>a recent pernicious sense. Here I speak purely of the usefulness of > >>these words as means of communication: I think that, if you were to > >>ask people to describe the sense that comes out of many of your > >>posts, many would choose the word "freedom". > >> > >>I moreover fear that, if "freedom" is susceptible to an evil > >>interpretation, how much moreso might an idea be that is > >>specifically placed counter to freedom? > >> > >>Certainly we're seeing an unprecendented attack on "the common > >>tongue": I think it is part of what Keith spoke about last week. If > >>it isn't post-modernism as such it at least coincides with > >>post-modernism. It used to be that we bought stuff and made our own > >>meaning to attach to it. These days we buy the meaning and receive > >>the concomitant stuff as a sort of after-sales service. > >> > >>I cannot accept the notion that physical survival has a necessary > >>precedence over spiritual or social or even intellectual > >>considerations. Man, after all, does not live on bread alone. I live > >>in a country where the ability of people to place other things (for > >>which they used the word "freedom" more often than not) above their > >>own survival was almost daily demonstrated not very long ago. There > >>is a point where my ability to breathe ceases to be important; I > >>would certainly risk that ability in an effort to stop someone going > >>about trying to strangle people... ! > >> > >>There is another sense, though. There is a sort of malaise in the > >>world, with people feeling that there is little point in maintaining > >>the environment on which they depend, and that the only honest > >>response to the world as they find it is like Samson to bring the > >>palace down on our heads. People feel like that from time to time, > >>but what if an entire generation feels like that? I'd suggest that > >>we were in serious trouble, if that were the case. E F Schumacher > >>called for methods of production "in keeping with man's need for > >>creativity" as a prerequisite for sustainable industry. It's in the > >>nature of the sort of being we're dealing with when we're dealing > >>with human beings. It's a practical thing. > >> > >>If, by "individuality", you mean the pervasive uniqueness of all > >>natural things, what Gerard Manley Hopkins called "All things > >>counter, original, spare, strange;" then I'm with you all the way. > >>But it is something that I associate with a valid and time-honoured > >>sense of the word "freedom". Conversely, I think that you will find > >>"individuality" a more problematically loaded term: specifically, > >>you'll lose all left-wing thinkers outside the USA at the outset to > >>an almost automatic chain reaction that goes > >>individuality > individualism > classic liberalism > capitalism > > >>colonialism > imperialism. You wouldn't get a word in edgeways among > >>all the subsequent accusations of rabid Fascist conservatism, which > >>would be a pity because, despite this nasty habit of German-idealist > >>thinking, left-wing thinkers outside the USA often have valuable > >>contributions to make: and I suspect that you might have a valuable > >>contribution to make to their ideals. > >> > >>Perhaps it's all a lot simpler. Perhaps we should merely ask, > >>independence of what? Perhaps it is only in the unstated predicate > >>that we differ. > >> > >>I think this stuff is important, but it is somewhat off-topic. It's > >>Keith's call. In any event, Mike, you're most welcome to e-mail me > >>off-list any time. > >> > >>Best regards > >> > >>-Dawie > >> > >>----- Original Message ---- > >>From: M&K DuPree <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>Sent: Sunday, 13 May, 2007 5:05:29 AM > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) > >> > >>DIV { MARGIN:0px;} > >>Hi Dawie...sorry for so long responding, but there are has been too > >>much going on in my life to do so sooner with words I'm hoping > >>will explain at least in part my position. Unfortunately, I > >>believe I have not been able to even scratch the surface > >>of expounding upon the issues with which you have taken issue and > >>also professed. But I'm trying, and also, if in trying I have > >>completely misread your meaning, please forgive me. > >> So, except for the gist of your last paragraph, I couldn't > >>disagree with you more. I believe you are deluded. "Freedom" and > >>"independence" are illusions...delusions...ideas foisted upon us by > >>a minority who want us to believe the supposed reality of these > >>words in order to divide us and ultimately conquer us, just as they > >>have and do--and will. "Freedom and independence are" NOT "merely > >>what all sane, healthy people strive for." Freedom and independence > >>are NOT "what causes children to be impatient to grow up, and so > >>they should be." "The problem is" NOT that "we've forgotten what > >>freedom and independence mean." The utterly fundamental problem is > >>that we've forgotten, in fact have never been taught (most of > >>us), what "we" mean. > >> Let me put my hands around your neck, Dawie, and squeeze and > >>the tighter I squeeze I want you to tell me all about your "freedom" > >>and your "independence." Keep talking...keep talking...Dawie? What > >>are you trying to say? Stop? Why? Because you can no longer > >>breathe the air we share. The same goes with water and dirt. The > >>fundamental fact of our being is that we share. And so each of us > >>comes and goes, along with whatever notions each of us might have of > >>freedom, independence, separation etc etc--every mental construct ad > >>nauseum--but what we share remains. And when Earth finally > >>disappears, another will appear, because what we ultimately share > >>is grander than even Earth. > >> As I read what you have written, I am impressed that what makes > >>you uniquely you, Dawie, has been captured and taught to believe > >>"you" are "free" and "independent." And why should you believe > >>otherwise? You feel this, so you believe it. But what are you > >>really feeling? You are feeling your nature to focus and to see for > >>yourself, to think for yourself, but it is not ultimately for > >>yourself that you are intended to see and think--it is for "us," the > >>fundamental reality of "us" being Earth and everything we share. > >> Anyway, crank up the old intellectual noodling all you want, > >>Dawie, reality will not be changed; only you will be changed, just > >>as you already have been changed as indicated by your words. You > >>will be (have been) changed from what you are into someone else's > >>idea for you of what they want you to be, just as they have been > >>doing for thousands of years. "United we stand. Divided we fall." > >>These are not merely words. The meaning of these words is the truth. > >> Anyway, I know we can divide this all up into a million bits of > >>ultimately nothingness and it will not change a thing, except as it > >>changes each of us. "Freedom," "independence," "separateness" all > >>are, as far as I can see from observing closely the situation in > >>which I have my being, words which should be blindfolded and shot, > >>beheaded, hung from the gallows, obliterated, annihilated etc > >>etc. In their place I would substitute "individuality." This word > >>makes sense to me, as it seems to me to more accurately describe my > >>experience. The others, however, are charalatans, terrorists, blue > >>meanies intending my utter enslavement. > >> Take care, Dawie. Mike DuPree > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: ><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Dawie>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >.uk>Dawie Coetzee > >>To: ><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai >lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:13 AM > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) > >> > >>Freedom and independence are merely what all sane, healthy people > >>strive for. It is what causes children to be impatient to grow up, > >>and so they should be. The problem is that we've forgotten what > >>freedom and independence mean. > >> > >>Freedom is not leisure; it is not a perpetual holiday. Conversely it > >>is not some Orwellian nightmare of "positive freedom", for there is > >>no freedom that is not freedom from duress. Freedom is the practical > >>power to claim authorship of one's acts, and the consequent > >>confidence to take responsibility for them. Likewise independence is > >>not a state of vacuum that affords impunity, but a basis of > >>separate personal realness that is a prerequisite for > >>any relationship with others. > >> > >>We are misled by a tendency to use metaphors from engineering. A > >>steel ball "free to move" on a pane of glass is no real illustration > >>of freedom, because the ball is quite incapable of resisting any > >>force that acts on it. It cannot refuse, it cannot say "No!", never > >>mind resist effectively: it is therefore the opposite of free. > >> > >>The problem is not a surfeit of freedom and independence but a lack > >>thereof in any meaningful sense. The ability to tolerate exceptional > >>behaviours without eroding the basis of its existence is perhaps the > >>measure of a system of society. The concentration of too much power > >>in too few hands causes the current system to be extremely > >>intolerant of exceptional behaviours, and therefore it requires all > >>kinds of intrusive bureaucratic tyranny to keep from 'disappearing > >>up its own arse', if you'll excuse the expression. What we need is > >>not a population that is so abjectly servile as to welcome the > >>bureaucratic tyranny (because if you start thinking that way, > >>universal genocide is a more efficient option) but an end to the > >>concentrations of power that maintain a pretext for the tyranny. > >> > >>-Dawie > >> > >>----- Original Message ---- > >>From: M&K DuPree <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>Sent: Sunday, 6 May, 2007 7:58:53 PM > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) > >> > >>Hi Kirk..thanks for sharing. More and more it appears to me the > >>bottom line is we are discovering how "freedom" and "independence" > >>are grand illusions which our subscribing to is now showing the > >>truth of. We are not "free," never will be, and there is no > >>"independence." We are all bound to each other and the planet in a > >>grand scheme of interdependence, where what happens to a part > >>affects the whole. So only as we learn to work together, to help > >>grow our common ground and strengthen the ties that bind, not only > >>do we have a chance of taking ourselves to the next generation and > >>the ones beyond that but of learning true happiness and fulfillment > >>in the present. Good night, and good luck. Mike DuPree > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: ><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Kirk>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Kirk >McLoren > >>To: ><<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >lelists.org>biofuel > >>Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:54 AM > >>Subject: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) > >> > >> > >> > >>"Redaktion Buergerwelle e.V. (BI Omega-CI Omega)" > >><<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:star.mail >@online.de>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>Dear Sir, Madam, Ladies and gentlemen, dear friends, > >> > >>for your information. > >> > >>Best regards, > >>Klaus Rudolph > >>Citizens' Initiative Omega > >>Member of the Buergerwelle Germany (incorporated society) > >>Protectorate Union of the Citizens and Initiatives for the Protection > >>against Electrosmog _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
