Two legs bad. Four legs good. Keith Addison wrote:
>I can see what you're saying Mike, and I agree, but it has a limited >sense. I think you should be more inclusive > >Certainly, as you said, "We are all bound to each other and the >planet in a grand scheme of interdependence, where what happens to a >part affects the whole." We're all in the same lifeboat. However, >right now, we don't have the freedom or the independence to make this >interdependence a reality, or at least not in our political and >economic behaviour. We've become dependent on the wrong things, we're >like drug addicts, and as such we deny the interdependence that is >our natural state. We have to free ourselves of these inimical >influences. > >Freedom from oppression, from injustice and exploitation, the >independence of communities where such freedoms are upheld, and of >the individuals that comprise such communites, these are real enough >terms, clear, useful, not evil. > >Where Dawie comes from, and where I also come from, they were >extremely real and immediate up until quite recently, and probably >still are, if perhaps in a somewhat different way. > >I don't think Dawie needs to provide any documentation, IMHO. > >Best > >Keith > > > > >>"Freedom" and "Independence"...Obfuscation. >> Dawie, I suspect we probably do have the same beef with the >>same stuff, but I'm not sure we agree on the reasons for the same >>stuff, especially if you can't understand why I want to eliminate >>"freedom" and "independence" from the vocabulary. These are sloppy >>words, based upon a superficial view of the world. And ultimately >>they are used to enslave NOT to "free" or make anyone "independent," >>which just can't happen because there IS no "freedom," there IS no >>"independence." >> You say "I must maintain that these terms, and the ideas that >>they embody, are much older than the 'minority who want us to >>believe the supposed reality of these words' of which you speak. >>Both terms have a rich history in the common tongue, and >>consequently a wealth of meanings and senses and associations, some >>of which quite contradict others. Especially 'freedom' has such an >>abundance of honourable associations that it would be unwise to >>reject it for the sake of a recent pernicious sense." Documentation >>please. Huge task, I know, but you're the one making this >>statement, so I'd like to read your evidence as to such. I'm going >>to suggest that the history of these words will reveal their >>appearance alongside the rise of the human "community" and >>especially leadership who would use the community to further their >>personal ends, no matter how many lives their personal ends might >>require. >> I would also like to assuage your "fear that, if 'freedom' is >>susceptible to an evil interpretation, how much moreso might an idea >>be that is specifically placed counter to freedom?" Take away >>"freedom," reveal the word for the impostor that it is, and there >>can be no idea counter to it. >> As far as your comments go in the paragraph regarding the >>common tongue and buying the meaning etc, no problemo. Not sure >>what this has to do with the elimination of "freedom" and >>"independence." I stated in an earlier response I have no problem >>with and in fact accept "individuality." >> So, "Man does not live by bread alone," eh? I much prefer >>"Praise Allah, but first tie your camel to a post," a Sufi saying. >>And hell yes I would do my level best to stop someone from >>strangling folks in the neighborhood (unless the folks they were >>strangling were "freedom" and "independence"), but it is NOT my >>"freedom" and "independence" I would be risking to stop them...it >>would be my "individuality." >> References to Schumacher etc, ok. >> Next paragraph, about losing left wingers because of some >>illogical chain of ideas proceeding from the word "individuality," I >>really don't give a damn. If they go that route with the word, then >>they deserve the chains they perceive the "imperialists" lock upon >>them. The live in fear, not in love. They live in too much concern >>for what the Jones's are up to and not in what they should be up to. >>When they spend more time keeping the weeds out of their own gardens >>and helping their neighbors do same, in other words, maintaining a >>healthy environment for the world to grow, there will be no room for >>the imperialists. Comprende? >> Finally, no, no need to ask "independence of what." There IS >>NO "independence" to ask "of what." So I'm not sure what your >>"unstated predicate" might be. >> These are evil words, Dawie, especially for how they have been >>used to turn our attention from reality and enslave humanity to the >>extent that we have all the crap being produced that is upsetting >>the delicate balance to carry on LIFE, LIFE that is INDIVIDUAL and >>INTERDEPENDENT, not "free" and "independent." >> Mike DuPree >> >> >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Keith Addison" >><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: <<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:40 PM >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) >> >> >> >>>>I think this stuff is important, but it is somewhat off-topic. It's >>>>Keith's call. In any event, Mike, you're most welcome to e-mail me >>>>off-list any time. >>>> >>>> >>>My call? Off-topic? "Freedom fries", "independence from Middle >>> >>> >>East oil", LOL! >> >> >>>I also think it's important, relevant to sustainable living. I tend >>>to think nothing's off-topic except bad behaviour. So let's keep it >>>on-list. >>> >>>Best >>> >>>Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hey Mike >>>> >>>>I think we've probably got the same beef with the same stuff. I've >>>>followed your posts about Real ID and other things, and it looks to >>>>me like we have very much the same stance on many issues. And it's >>>>important to keep questioning our basic assumptions, so it I >>>>thoroughly support you also in subjecting the terms "freedom" and >>>>"independence" to that sort of scrutiny. It's something I do myself >>>>a lot, as you can see, to the endless irritation of many. >>>> >>>>However, I must maintain that these terms, and the ideas that they >>>>embody, are much older than the "minority who want us to believe the >>>>supposed reality of these words" of which you speak. Both terms have >>>>a rich history in the common tongue, and consequently a wealth of >>>>meanings and senses and associations, some of which quite contradict >>>>others. Especially "freedom" has such an abundance of honourable >>>>associations that it would be unwise to reject it for the sake of >>>>a recent pernicious sense. Here I speak purely of the usefulness of >>>>these words as means of communication: I think that, if you were to >>>>ask people to describe the sense that comes out of many of your >>>>posts, many would choose the word "freedom". >>>> >>>>I moreover fear that, if "freedom" is susceptible to an evil >>>>interpretation, how much moreso might an idea be that is >>>>specifically placed counter to freedom? >>>> >>>>Certainly we're seeing an unprecendented attack on "the common >>>>tongue": I think it is part of what Keith spoke about last week. If >>>>it isn't post-modernism as such it at least coincides with >>>>post-modernism. It used to be that we bought stuff and made our own >>>>meaning to attach to it. These days we buy the meaning and receive >>>>the concomitant stuff as a sort of after-sales service. >>>> >>>>I cannot accept the notion that physical survival has a necessary >>>>precedence over spiritual or social or even intellectual >>>>considerations. Man, after all, does not live on bread alone. I live >>>>in a country where the ability of people to place other things (for >>>>which they used the word "freedom" more often than not) above their >>>>own survival was almost daily demonstrated not very long ago. There >>>>is a point where my ability to breathe ceases to be important; I >>>>would certainly risk that ability in an effort to stop someone going >>>>about trying to strangle people... ! >>>> >>>>There is another sense, though. There is a sort of malaise in the >>>>world, with people feeling that there is little point in maintaining >>>>the environment on which they depend, and that the only honest >>>>response to the world as they find it is like Samson to bring the >>>>palace down on our heads. People feel like that from time to time, >>>>but what if an entire generation feels like that? I'd suggest that >>>>we were in serious trouble, if that were the case. E F Schumacher >>>>called for methods of production "in keeping with man's need for >>>>creativity" as a prerequisite for sustainable industry. It's in the >>>>nature of the sort of being we're dealing with when we're dealing >>>>with human beings. It's a practical thing. >>>> >>>>If, by "individuality", you mean the pervasive uniqueness of all >>>>natural things, what Gerard Manley Hopkins called "All things >>>>counter, original, spare, strange;" then I'm with you all the way. >>>>But it is something that I associate with a valid and time-honoured >>>>sense of the word "freedom". Conversely, I think that you will find >>>>"individuality" a more problematically loaded term: specifically, >>>>you'll lose all left-wing thinkers outside the USA at the outset to >>>>an almost automatic chain reaction that goes >>>>individuality > individualism > classic liberalism > capitalism > >>>>colonialism > imperialism. You wouldn't get a word in edgeways among >>>>all the subsequent accusations of rabid Fascist conservatism, which >>>>would be a pity because, despite this nasty habit of German-idealist >>>>thinking, left-wing thinkers outside the USA often have valuable >>>>contributions to make: and I suspect that you might have a valuable >>>>contribution to make to their ideals. >>>> >>>>Perhaps it's all a lot simpler. Perhaps we should merely ask, >>>>independence of what? Perhaps it is only in the unstated predicate >>>>that we differ. >>>> >>>>I think this stuff is important, but it is somewhat off-topic. It's >>>>Keith's call. In any event, Mike, you're most welcome to e-mail me >>>>off-list any time. >>>> >>>>Best regards >>>> >>>>-Dawie >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ---- >>>>From: M&K DuPree <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>Sent: Sunday, 13 May, 2007 5:05:29 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) >>>> >>>>DIV { MARGIN:0px;} >>>>Hi Dawie...sorry for so long responding, but there are has been too >>>>much going on in my life to do so sooner with words I'm hoping >>>>will explain at least in part my position. Unfortunately, I >>>>believe I have not been able to even scratch the surface >>>>of expounding upon the issues with which you have taken issue and >>>>also professed. But I'm trying, and also, if in trying I have >>>>completely misread your meaning, please forgive me. >>>> So, except for the gist of your last paragraph, I couldn't >>>>disagree with you more. I believe you are deluded. "Freedom" and >>>>"independence" are illusions...delusions...ideas foisted upon us by >>>>a minority who want us to believe the supposed reality of these >>>>words in order to divide us and ultimately conquer us, just as they >>>>have and do--and will. "Freedom and independence are" NOT "merely >>>>what all sane, healthy people strive for." Freedom and independence >>>>are NOT "what causes children to be impatient to grow up, and so >>>>they should be." "The problem is" NOT that "we've forgotten what >>>>freedom and independence mean." The utterly fundamental problem is >>>>that we've forgotten, in fact have never been taught (most of >>>>us), what "we" mean. >>>> Let me put my hands around your neck, Dawie, and squeeze and >>>>the tighter I squeeze I want you to tell me all about your "freedom" >>>>and your "independence." Keep talking...keep talking...Dawie? What >>>>are you trying to say? Stop? Why? Because you can no longer >>>>breathe the air we share. The same goes with water and dirt. The >>>>fundamental fact of our being is that we share. And so each of us >>>>comes and goes, along with whatever notions each of us might have of >>>>freedom, independence, separation etc etc--every mental construct ad >>>>nauseum--but what we share remains. And when Earth finally >>>>disappears, another will appear, because what we ultimately share >>>>is grander than even Earth. >>>> As I read what you have written, I am impressed that what makes >>>>you uniquely you, Dawie, has been captured and taught to believe >>>>"you" are "free" and "independent." And why should you believe >>>>otherwise? You feel this, so you believe it. But what are you >>>>really feeling? You are feeling your nature to focus and to see for >>>>yourself, to think for yourself, but it is not ultimately for >>>>yourself that you are intended to see and think--it is for "us," the >>>>fundamental reality of "us" being Earth and everything we share. >>>> Anyway, crank up the old intellectual noodling all you want, >>>>Dawie, reality will not be changed; only you will be changed, just >>>>as you already have been changed as indicated by your words. You >>>>will be (have been) changed from what you are into someone else's >>>>idea for you of what they want you to be, just as they have been >>>>doing for thousands of years. "United we stand. Divided we fall." >>>>These are not merely words. The meaning of these words is the truth. >>>> Anyway, I know we can divide this all up into a million bits of >>>>ultimately nothingness and it will not change a thing, except as it >>>>changes each of us. "Freedom," "independence," "separateness" all >>>>are, as far as I can see from observing closely the situation in >>>>which I have my being, words which should be blindfolded and shot, >>>>beheaded, hung from the gallows, obliterated, annihilated etc >>>>etc. In their place I would substitute "individuality." This word >>>>makes sense to me, as it seems to me to more accurately describe my >>>>experience. The others, however, are charalatans, terrorists, blue >>>>meanies intending my utter enslavement. >>>> Take care, Dawie. Mike DuPree >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: >>>> >>>> >><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Dawie>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>.uk>Dawie Coetzee >> >> >>>>To: >>>> >>>> >><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai >>lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> >> >>>>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:13 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) >>>> >>>>Freedom and independence are merely what all sane, healthy people >>>>strive for. It is what causes children to be impatient to grow up, >>>>and so they should be. The problem is that we've forgotten what >>>>freedom and independence mean. >>>> >>>>Freedom is not leisure; it is not a perpetual holiday. Conversely it >>>>is not some Orwellian nightmare of "positive freedom", for there is >>>>no freedom that is not freedom from duress. Freedom is the practical >>>>power to claim authorship of one's acts, and the consequent >>>>confidence to take responsibility for them. Likewise independence is >>>>not a state of vacuum that affords impunity, but a basis of >>>>separate personal realness that is a prerequisite for >>>>any relationship with others. >>>> >>>>We are misled by a tendency to use metaphors from engineering. A >>>>steel ball "free to move" on a pane of glass is no real illustration >>>>of freedom, because the ball is quite incapable of resisting any >>>>force that acts on it. It cannot refuse, it cannot say "No!", never >>>>mind resist effectively: it is therefore the opposite of free. >>>> >>>>The problem is not a surfeit of freedom and independence but a lack >>>>thereof in any meaningful sense. The ability to tolerate exceptional >>>>behaviours without eroding the basis of its existence is perhaps the >>>>measure of a system of society. The concentration of too much power >>>>in too few hands causes the current system to be extremely >>>>intolerant of exceptional behaviours, and therefore it requires all >>>>kinds of intrusive bureaucratic tyranny to keep from 'disappearing >>>>up its own arse', if you'll excuse the expression. What we need is >>>>not a population that is so abjectly servile as to welcome the >>>>bureaucratic tyranny (because if you start thinking that way, >>>>universal genocide is a more efficient option) but an end to the >>>>concentrations of power that maintain a pretext for the tyranny. >>>> >>>>-Dawie >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ---- >>>>From: M&K DuPree <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>Sent: Sunday, 6 May, 2007 7:58:53 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) >>>> >>>>Hi Kirk..thanks for sharing. More and more it appears to me the >>>>bottom line is we are discovering how "freedom" and "independence" >>>>are grand illusions which our subscribing to is now showing the >>>>truth of. We are not "free," never will be, and there is no >>>>"independence." We are all bound to each other and the planet in a >>>>grand scheme of interdependence, where what happens to a part >>>>affects the whole. So only as we learn to work together, to help >>>>grow our common ground and strengthen the ties that bind, not only >>>>do we have a chance of taking ourselves to the next generation and >>>>the ones beyond that but of learning true happiness and fulfillment >>>>in the present. Good night, and good luck. Mike DuPree >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: >>>> >>>> >><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Kirk>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Kirk >>McLoren >> >> >>>>To: >>>> >>>> >><<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>lelists.org>biofuel >> >> >>>>Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:54 AM >>>>Subject: [Biofuel] EMF-Omega-News 5. May 2007 (April articles) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>"Redaktion Buergerwelle e.V. (BI Omega-CI Omega)" >>>><<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:star.mail >>>> >>>> >>@online.de>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>>>Dear Sir, Madam, Ladies and gentlemen, dear friends, >>>> >>>>for your information. >>>> >>>>Best regards, >>>>Klaus Rudolph >>>>Citizens' Initiative Omega >>>>Member of the Buergerwelle Germany (incorporated society) >>>>Protectorate Union of the Citizens and Initiatives for the Protection >>>>against Electrosmog >>>> >>>> > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
