Hi Dawie >I am trying to come up with a conception of "nonprogressive innovation".
Isn't that what traditional cultures have always done, up to now? Sustainable innovation... Someone pointed out that there have been no "primitive" societies for a very long time - the so-called "less-developed" or "undeveloped" societies are very sophisticated at what they do and how they live. I don't get the impession that they find life dull and boring. All best Keith >In a >culture so coloured by the idea of progress it is barely possible to >hold it in >my mind. > >Regards > >Dawie Coetzee > > >________________________________ >From: robert and benita rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org >Sent: Fri, 25 March, 2011 21:01:00 >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Why Fukushima made me stop worrying and love nuclear >power (George Monbiot) > >On 3/25/2011 10:38 AM, Dawie Coetzee wrote: >> I fear that, despite Keith's occasional promptings to the contrary, I still >had >> no great love for George Monbiot anyway. The latest merely >>confirms my earlier >> misgivings. >> >> My own position, in which the Green is rather overshadowed by the Black, >> represents one of the few angles from which George's cloven hoof is really >> visible. To me he has always been far too much the >>eco-authoritarian, for whom >> ecological survival could never really, thoroughly, consummately >>co-exist with >> personal liberty. His localism seems thin and superficial, his >>centralism runs >> much deeper. >> >> An appreciation for obscure local apple cultivars gave George Monbiot a >chance. >> He has blown it now. > > Ok, it's one thing to dismiss the article offhand because it >doesn't harmonize with the overall theme of local energy and food >production, but I would like to ask the list what I believe is an >important question. Mr. Monibot mentioned that pre-industrial England >did not support a very comfortable lifestyle for most of its >inhabitants, and that full reliance on solar, wind and biomass would >move English society backward without nuclear power. Does it follow >that a reduction in energy use and reliance on renewables would >necessarily result in massive declines in both industrial output and >citizen comfort? (I'm also thinking of that article Keith posted a few >weeks ago, in which analysis of coal consumption in Industrial >Revolution England actually INCREASED with improvements in efficiency.) >Can we support large populations in the industrialized nations without >fossil and nuclear power? > > I can envision a personal lifestyle in which my energy needs are >significantly reduced, and I think we--as a society--could make >substantial progress in better fitting solar energy to demand. (Using >solar thermal air conditioning is a good example.) But someone still >needs to make appliances and sundries. The equipment to convert diffuse >energy into electricity and heat must be manufactured, somehow. Where >is the energy going to come from for these activities? How can we work >with metals, and perform other energy-intensive tasks, without massive >power plants? > > Or, is Mr. Monibot's "either / or" scenario completely off base >altogether? > > When I hear talk of "energy independence," it's usually in the >context of substituting one form of energy for another, or blind >insistence that the environment matters less than our need for energy >and we should "drill and dig" with renewed vigor. I don't hear a lot of >willingness to re-organize our cities, invest in public transit and move >away from factory farms. Our current economic model enjoys an almost >mystical reverence, and none of its underlying assumptions can be >challenged without accusations of "socialism" (or worse) being flung >about. But even IF we could come up with a new form of economic policy, >where is the dense energy for manufacturing going to come from? It's >clear that we'll need to keep on building things, so HOW can that happen? > >robert luis rabello >"The Edge of Justice" >"The Long Journey" >New Adventure for Your Mind >http://www.newadventure.ca > >Ranger Supercharger Project Page >http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
