This all seems a bit one-sided in the last few postings. Christian community and the filial piety of Confucianism are both strong anti-dotes to individualism. That's good, so far as it goes. But anyone who has lived in such settings knows that they can be as oppressive and wasteful of resources and human life as individualistic, market and money driven societies. Community and individualism are both to be valued and not taken to excess. The issue of sustainability would seem to be better served by learning the spiritual skills within each tradition that try to limit excesses of individualism and groupthink, while expanding room for individual and collective action. While Joel would like to see some universal values brought to the fore, I think that sort of search is often a distraction from taking immediate sensible actions that are spiritually well-grounded. People rarely know the spiritual disciplines of one tradition well or deeply, let alone know the disciplines of many religions. So just living more deeply within the possibilities and paradoxes of what one knows may be a sufficient first step. If we are people of good faith, we will then listen to and learn from others, from the paradoxes and possibilities of other people and traditions. But the process unfolds slowly. Eric Eric Clay, M.Div., Ph.D. Community Coach Shared Journeys, Inc. 832 North Aurora Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607-592-6874 [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected])
SHARED JOURNEYS That all may thrive and none be excluded In a message dated 7/16/2009 8:29:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I agree with Joel. The vast majority of "Christian" westerners lack a fundamental understanding of Christianity. It's not really their fault, as, with Karl Marx, they've confused the teachings of of an official church hierarchy with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and hence never really understood his message. Placing community above the self is integral to Christian religious philosophy, just as it is in Confucian philosophy. Recognition of this is one of the aspects of Amish, Mennonite and Hutterite anabaptist community life that sets them apart from mainstream Christian churches. Of course a true embracing of Christianity would spell the end of capitalism, which is why Christianity really isn't even taught by the mainstream "Christian" churches in this country. George Frantz --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Joel and Sarah Gagnon <[email protected]> wrote: From: Joel and Sarah Gagnon <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [SustainableTompkins] How Confucianism could curb global warming To: "Sustainable Tompkins County listserv" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 2:46 PM I can't say that I agree with Martha about the inherent difference between western and eastern religions. Christianity is inherently communal. Its core teaching is "being for others", sacrificing oneself for the sake of reconciliation and furtherance of God's plan for creation. That this core focus has been so distorted as to support an individualist philosophy says more about human nature and rationalization than it does about the teachings of Jesus Christ. Our values are shaped by our ethics, and our ethics are often -- in fact usually -- religiously grounded. The search for a common set of ethics based on shared and essentially innate beliefs, is a compelling need supported by the common elements of most religions. Where do we get this set of shared beliefs? An interesting question, to be sure, and the case can be made that the notion that they are "self-evident" as the US Declaration of Independence suggests, rests "solidly" on assertion and a shared desire that they be true. That we have managed the beginnings of a consensus that there are universal human rights is hopeful for dealing with the crisis of the moment, but it needs to be buttressed by action and extended in scope to encompass the imperative to act collectively to address climate change and the rape of the environment. Joel At 09:40 AM 7/15/09 -0400, you wrote: >The desire for sustainability has more to do with values than with >individual virtues, experience or maturity of enlightenment (although one >could pursue the case of early adaptors in a non-secular argument). >Eastern religions focus on collectivism where Western religions emphasize >individualism (and therefore, indirectly promote capitalism). As a result, >Eastern religions have a value system entirely different from Western >religions. The other issue that must be addressed is morality, which has >been for the most part, lost in Western culture. Up until 100 years ago, >morality constrained capitalism. Now we are dealing with unbridled >capitalism, a very ugly monster indeed. It's not so much that we need a >change of religion to bring about a collective push toward sustainability, >it's that we need to restore morality and change the fundamental values of >the populous. This could be done either through a religious or cultural >shift. Only when we (as a social, religious or cultural group) no longer >hold money as our highest value, can other values become priorities thus >bringing about the change to a more sustainable way of life. > >--Martha > >Martha Goodsell >Fallow Hollow Deer Farm, LLC >125 Williams Road >Candor, NY 13743 >607-659-4635 >email: [email protected] > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:29 AM >Subject: Re: [SustainableTompkins] How Confucianism could curb global warming > > >>Gay has raised good questions. >> >>Compassion saves us from the pitfalls of perfectionism. This is the >>overarching sense of balance at the heart of any mature, reflective religious >>movement, Western or Eastern. And such balance comes from people who have >>faced their own paradoxes, contradictions, and hypocrisies and committed >>themselves to do a bit better at what promotes wholeness and change that >>might >>be sustainable. (Fundamentalism in any religious or secular practice never >>develops this level of self-awareness.) >> >>What I see of the sustainability movement from a little distance is that >>it is still in the "smart" phase of enlightened self interest that seeks the >>welfare of the whole as much as the individual. This is not a bad place >>to be, but it does not deal with the problems of how individual needs may >>run at odds with groups and how groups may too easily become collusive, >>group-think exercises that undermine innovations that challenge popular >>assumptions within the larger sustainability movement. >> >>While there are many individual and group exceptions, the movement as a >>whole remains mostly a secular, enlightenment/modernity concern. It has >>only >>begun to embrace the deep roots of the religious commitments that define >>the peoples of the world. >> >>One reasonably credible breakdown of religious affiliations, worldwide, is >>as follows: Just over half of the inhabitants of Earth identify with one >>of the Western, Abrahamic faiths: 0.2% Jewish, 32% Chrisitian, 20% Muslim. >>The Eastern traditions account for one-half of inhabitants: 12.5% Hindu, >>6% Buddhist, 6.5% Tao and Confucian. The non-religious and atheist >>account for 12.5% and 2.5%, respectively. The remaining 10% pick up >>hundreds of >>different traditions. >> >>Sustainability will need to work within the mature practices of each of >>these approaches (not the simplistic or fundamental ones), if we are to see >>much of a deepening of sustainability worldwide. >> >>Eric >> >>Eric Clay, M.Div., Ph.D. >>Community Coach >>Shared Journeys, Inc. >>832 North Aurora Street >>Ithaca, NY 14850 >>607-592-6874 >>[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) >> >>SHARED JOURNEYS >>That all may thrive and none be excluded >> >> >> >>**************Can love help you live longer? Find out now. >>(http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relatio nships/?ncid=emlweu >> > slove00000001) >>_______________________________________________ >>For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, >>please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ >> >>RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: >>[email protected] >>http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins >>Questions about the list? ask [email protected] >>free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > >_______________________________________________ >For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, >please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > >RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: >[email protected] >http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins >Questions about the list? ask [email protected] >free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org _______________________________________________ For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: [email protected] http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins Questions about the list? ask [email protected] free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org _______________________________________________ For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: [email protected] http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins Questions about the list? ask [email protected] free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org **************Can love help you live longer? Find out now. (http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweu slove00000001) _______________________________________________ For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: [email protected] http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins Questions about the list? ask [email protected] free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
