I found Eric's comments both helpful and thought-provoking. Below are his
comments; my additional comments are interspersed.
At 11:57 AM 7/16/09 -0400, Eric wrote:
This all seems a bit one-sided in the last few postings.
Christian community and the filial piety of Confucianism are both strong
anti-dotes to individualism. That's good, so far as it goes. But anyone
who has lived in such settings knows that they can be as oppressive and
wasteful of resources and human life as individualistic, market and
money driven
societies. Community and individualism are both to be valued and not
taken to excess.
The issue of sustainability would seem to be better served by learning the
spiritual skills within each tradition that try to limit excesses of
individualism and groupthink, while expanding room for individual and
collective
action.
Well, if both community and individuals can be and often are oppressive and
wasteful of resources -- and I agree that that is often the case -- then
what is the basis for getting them to "do the right thing"? In making the
case for resource conservation and wise management of our environmental
assets, what argument can we bring to bear? Lately I have been reading that
some are opposing both a carbon tax and cap and trade because they would
place the US at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace,
costing us jobs. Michael Arcuri is arguing that way. In effect he is saying
that jobs in his district are more important than long-term climate
impacts. Others are arguing for developing coal and tar sands because we
will need all sources to deal with declining oil production from
traditional sources. Implicit is a belief that maintaining the energy
status quo is more important than curbing CO2 production. In each of these
cases there is a very real possibility that a majority in Congress will
vote in support of this kind of short-term thinking. What is our argument
that it is wrong?
I am basically a consequentialist when it comes to ethics. I look at the
impacts of the choices available to me and try to minimize the bad and
maximize the good. My judgement of what is bad and good, though, rest
squarely on my Christian faith. I look to Christ as my moral compass. That
works for me, but it is not a platform from which to argue for collective
action outside of those who share my beliefs. That is why some sort of
universal ethical framework is important. Maybe it really is
"self-evident", but I doubt it.
While Joel would like to see some universal values brought to the fore, I
think that sort of search is often a distraction from taking immediate
sensible actions that are spiritually well-grounded.
People rarely know the spiritual disciplines of one tradition well or
deeply, let alone know the disciplines of many religions. So just living
more
deeply within the possibilities and paradoxes of what one knows may be a
sufficient first step.
A very good first step, and a very worthwhile perspective to offer to the
debate about what we all should be doing individually and collectively. In
a pluralistic world, though, it may not suffice as a justification for
joint action.
If we are people of good faith, we will then listen to and learn from
others, from the paradoxes and possibilities of other people
and traditions.
But the process unfolds slowly.
An attitude of humility is a strong asset here, but it is unfortunately all
to uncommon. Recognizing that our tradition and beliefs do not fully
encompass all that is good and true should open us to learning the
possibilities of other ways of viewing reality. We all like to think that
our way is the only right way. The end result of that kind of thinking is a
power struggle with winners and losers. In the end, we all lose.
Eric
Eric Clay, M.Div., Ph.D.
Community Coach
Shared Journeys, Inc.
832 North Aurora Street
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-592-6874
[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected])
SHARED JOURNEYS
That all may thrive and none be excluded
In a message dated 7/16/2009 8:29:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I agree with Joel.
The vast majority of "Christian" westerners lack a fundamental
understanding of Christianity.
It's not really their fault, as, with Karl Marx, they've confused the
teachings of of an official church hierarchy with the teachings of Jesus
Christ, and hence never really understood his message.
Placing community above the self is integral to Christian religious
philosophy, just as it is in Confucian philosophy. Recognition of this
is one of
the aspects of Amish, Mennonite and Hutterite anabaptist community life
that sets them apart from mainstream Christian churches.
Of course a true embracing of Christianity would spell the end of
capitalism, which is why Christianity really isn't even taught by the
mainstream
"Christian" churches in this country.
George Frantz
--- On Wed, 7/15/09, Joel and Sarah Gagnon
<[email protected]> wrote:
From: Joel and Sarah Gagnon <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SustainableTompkins] How Confucianism could curb global
warming
To: "Sustainable Tompkins County listserv"
<[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 2:46 PM
I can't say that I agree with Martha about the inherent difference between
western and eastern religions. Christianity is inherently communal. Its
core teaching is "being for others", sacrificing oneself for the sake of
reconciliation and furtherance of God's plan for creation. That this core
focus has been so distorted as to support an individualist philosophy says
more about human nature and rationalization than it does about the
teachings of Jesus Christ.
Our values are shaped by our ethics, and our ethics are often -- in fact
usually -- religiously grounded. The search for a common set of ethics
based on shared and essentially innate beliefs, is a compelling need
supported by the common elements of most religions. Where do we get this
set of shared beliefs? An interesting question, to be sure, and the case
can be made that the notion that they are "self-evident" as the US
Declaration of Independence suggests, rests "solidly" on assertion and a
shared desire that they be true. That we have managed the beginnings of a
consensus that there are universal human rights is hopeful for dealing
with
the crisis of the moment, but it needs to be buttressed by action and
extended in scope to encompass the imperative to act collectively to
address climate change and the rape of the environment.
Joel
At 09:40 AM 7/15/09 -0400, you wrote:
>The desire for sustainability has more to do with values than with
>individual virtues, experience or maturity of enlightenment (although one
>could pursue the case of early adaptors in a non-secular argument).
>Eastern religions focus on collectivism where Western religions emphasize
>individualism (and therefore, indirectly promote capitalism). As a
result,
>Eastern religions have a value system entirely different from Western
>religions. The other issue that must be addressed is morality, which has
>been for the most part, lost in Western culture. Up until 100 years ago,
>morality constrained capitalism. Now we are dealing with unbridled
>capitalism, a very ugly monster indeed. It's not so much that we need a
>change of religion to bring about a collective push toward
sustainability,
>it's that we need to restore morality and change the fundamental values
of
>the populous. This could be done either through a religious or cultural
>shift. Only when we (as a social, religious or cultural group) no longer
>hold money as our highest value, can other values become priorities thus
>bringing about the change to a more sustainable way of life.
>
>--Martha
>
>Martha Goodsell
>Fallow Hollow Deer Farm, LLC
>125 Williams Road
>Candor, NY 13743
>607-659-4635
>email: [email protected]
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:29 AM
>Subject: Re: [SustainableTompkins] How Confucianism could curb global
warming
>
>
>>Gay has raised good questions.
>>
>>Compassion saves us from the pitfalls of perfectionism. This is the
>>overarching sense of balance at the heart of any mature, reflective
religious
>>movement, Western or Eastern. And such balance comes from people who
have
>>faced their own paradoxes, contradictions, and hypocrisies and committed
>>themselves to do a bit better at what promotes wholeness and change that
>>might
>>be sustainable. (Fundamentalism in any religious or secular practice
never
>>develops this level of self-awareness.)
>>
>>What I see of the sustainability movement from a little distance is that
>>it is still in the "smart" phase of enlightened self interest that seeks
the
>>welfare of the whole as much as the individual. This is not a bad place
>>to be, but it does not deal with the problems of how individual needs may
>>run at odds with groups and how groups may too easily become collusive,
>>group-think exercises that undermine innovations that challenge popular
>>assumptions within the larger sustainability movement.
>>
>>While there are many individual and group exceptions, the movement as a
>>whole remains mostly a secular, enlightenment/modernity concern. It
has
>>only
>>begun to embrace the deep roots of the religious commitments that define
>>the peoples of the world.
>>
>>One reasonably credible breakdown of religious affiliations, worldwide,
is
>>as follows: Just over half of the inhabitants of Earth identify with one
>>of the Western, Abrahamic faiths: 0.2% Jewish, 32% Chrisitian, 20%
Muslim.
>>The Eastern traditions account for one-half of inhabitants: 12.5%
Hindu,
>>6% Buddhist, 6.5% Tao and Confucian. The non-religious and atheist
>>account for 12.5% and 2.5%, respectively. The remaining 10% pick up
>>hundreds of
>>different traditions.
>>
>>Sustainability will need to work within the mature practices of each of
>>these approaches (not the simplistic or fundamental ones), if we are to
see
>>much of a deepening of sustainability worldwide.
>>
>>Eric
>>
>>Eric Clay, M.Div., Ph.D.
>>Community Coach
>>Shared Journeys, Inc.
>>832 North Aurora Street
>>Ithaca, NY 14850
>>607-592-6874
>>[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected])
>>
>>SHARED JOURNEYS
>>That all may thrive and none be excluded
>>
>>
>>
>>**************Can love help you live longer? Find out now.
>>(http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relatio
nships/?ncid=emlweu
>> > slove00000001)
>>_______________________________________________
>>For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area,
>>please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/
>>
>>RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
>>[email protected]
>>http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
>>Questions about the list? ask
[email protected]
>>free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area,
>please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/
>
>RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
>[email protected]
>http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
>Questions about the list? ask
[email protected]
>free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
_______________________________________________
For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area,
please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/
RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
[email protected]
http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
Questions about the list? ask [email protected]
free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
_______________________________________________
For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area,
please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/
RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
[email protected]
http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
Questions about the list? ask [email protected]
free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
**************Can love help you live longer? Find out now.
(http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweu
slove00000001)
_______________________________________________
For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area,
please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/
RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
[email protected]
http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
Questions about the list? ask [email protected]
free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
_______________________________________________
For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, please
visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/
RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
[email protected]
http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
Questions about the list? ask [email protected]
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