hehe, yeah. I think it's more likely that I will donate time and/or money to symfony at some point. I have mostly used it on private backend development for clients who don't care how the work gets done. I have yet to launch any of my personal projects using it. If one of those takes off, then you bet I'll donate to symfony. ;)
I just realized how much of a symfony-head I sound like on here. I've tried a lot of frameworks. I stick with symfony because it's the best mix of flexibility while forcing you into a maintainable development style. Zend was too flexible. If you didn't do everything right, you ended up with an OO-MVC mess. Symfony keeps me on track with minimal restrictions as a structured framework. *gets off the soap box* --Derrek On Nov 2, 1:15 pm, Alexandru-Emil Lupu <gang.al...@gmail.com> wrote: > However, symfony is open source ... :) as fabien said ... no one has thought > to help financial sensio labs or symfony project ... > if is so powerfull and your managers are satisfied about the product, you > could try convince them to donate a small amount of money to symfony project > ... > Unfortunatelly, my manager is not a tech person and also does not understand > the donation concept... he's an accountant > Alecs > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Derrek <dle...@allofzero.com> wrote: > > > I would love to see a TCO study as well. > > > It's just hard to compare. One of my clients that has been resisting > > symfony/php for a while just opted to have me build a standalone > > module in it. The module is a reporting tool that seamlessly > > integrates with their database. The module took a month to build and > > exposes all of the databases tables (over 200 tables) for statistical > > processing. I couldn't have built it without symfony + doctrine. It > > could have taken months or even years on a non-mvc-orm platform. I > > didn't have to write any form code (because of widgets/validators), > > sql (because of doctrine) or handle anything but building my own > > report logic. *and* it works on SQL server and MySQL which is huge > > since this client is migrating from SQL to MySQL at the same time as > > releasing this tool. > > > It's so powerful that the client is thinking about selling it as an > > add-on component as their user base would not need crystal reports or > > other reporting tools anymore. > > > If you factor in situations like that, symfony would pay for itself > > dozens or hundreds of times over. > > > --Derrek > > > On Nov 2, 10:25 am, Lee Bolding <l...@leesbian.net> wrote: > > > OK, now that you've mentioned porting an existing application, I can > > > *kind of* understand that. > > > > I'd expect most management to take the approach "if it ain't broke, > > > don't fix it" - and in their eyes it ain't broke. > > > > A while back I was in a similar situation - like you, I tried to > > > explain the case of doing it the correct way (cheaper, faster, easier > > > to maintain, following conventions(!) less risk, etc) but they weren't > > > interested. > > > > If I had the time, I'd do a TCO study for my next symfony project - > > > showing how long certain aspects took with symfony, how long they'd > > > have taken without symfony, and how that affected the overall cost/ > > > profitability of the project. > > > > It would also be good to see a similar thing to compare different > > > frameworks - after all, apart from availability of developers with > > > experience, the next most important thing about a framework (for > > > management) is how much it's going to cost or save them, isn't it? > > > > On 1 Nov 2009, at 21:44,Derrekwrote: > > > > >> Do you know the reason they don't want to use symfony? is it because > > > >> they want to maintain the application themselves? or with labour > > > >> cheaper than yourself once it's built? it would be interesting to > > > >> know... as it could spur on a symfony and TCO study or something. > > > > > It's a bunch of things. Using symfony would actually let them get less > > > > costly help than me once the app is written. The problem I think is > > > > the up-front investment in conversion. Most of them have tech guys > > > > that are comfortable with how things are now. So the tech guys tell > > > > management "we don't think it's worth the cost". It's much much *much* > > > > (let me reiterate *MUCH*) easier to get management to start with > > > > symfony on a new project. But if there is an existing system, even in > > > > php, they shy away from it. It may be a good idea to have tutorials > > > > for showing how efficiently an app can be re-developed in symfony when > > > > coming from another platform. > > > > >> I actually find that it takes me considerably longer to do anything > > > >> when not using symfony now... validators? security? ORM? ergh. Even > > > >> simple CRUD applications can be knocked out quickly - remember the > > > >> original Blog screencast for 1.0? how long did that take? 8 minutes > > > >> or > > > >> so? > > > > > I concur, especially on new development. I can knockout a new project > > > > for a demo in a few days. Polish a large project in a few weeks. But > > > > migrating an existing system with 200+ tables in a best case scenario > > > > takes time. Time that will be saved when faced with the idea of re- > > > > creating what symfony does very well already. One of my clients just > > > > spent days re-creating doctrine's nested set capabilities. They kept > > > > looking for ways to make it "better" for their needs. In the end they > > > > spent dozens of man-hours creating something that is entirely inferior > > > > to doctrine's nested set. It would have taken me 2-3 hours if they > > > > were already in symfony. > > > > >> The only argument I can see against using symfony is for the > > > >> reasons I > > > >> mentioned above. > > > > > I'm not sure there are any rational arguments to not use symfony (or > > > > any other competent MVC framework like Zend). Except that I get paid > > > > way more in the long term on a project if I *don't* get them on > > > > symfony because I have to re-create so much of what it does. :) Again, > > > > I don't mind this. Clients that choose symfony accelerate their > > > > product development and meet the users needs better. The problem is > > > > proving that to management. > > > > > Anyway, back to work. > > > > > --Derrek > > -- > As programmers create bigger & better idiot proof programs, so the universe > creates bigger & better idiots! > I am on web: http://www.alecslupu.ro/ > I am on twitter:http://twitter.com/alecslupu > I am on linkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/alecslupu > Tel: (+4)0748.543.798 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
