Alan - My understanding was that they did those four workouts in five days, they called it "survive the five"
- Ed Parrot ----- Original Message ----- From: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 2:34 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > You are correct Ed, but it was only those 4 and they weren't back to back to > back to back. Josh Cox did similar workouts when he (is he still?) was under > Fila/Rosa's care. A long progression run of 30-42k, up to 25 x 1:00/1:00 > fartlek, and long intervals. The famed Flouspar Hill 13 mile hill run was > also thrown in there ocassionally and was also a sort of progression run. > The FILA USA program seemed to have flopped with a number of injuries and > "political" problems. The fact that the US program was plagued with injuries > and the Rosa Kenyan program has done well gives even more light to the rumor > that Rosa is a druglord. > > Alan > > > >From: "edndana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: "edndana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:43:24 -0400 > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Received: from mc3-f34.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.236.169]) by > >mc3-s11.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 28 > >Aug 2003 08:45:26 -0700 > >Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by > >mc3-f34.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 28 > >Aug 2003 08:42:44 -0700 > >Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [127.0.0.1])by > >darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SFOoHD024359for > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:24:50 -0700 > >(PDT) > >Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu > >(8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7SFOoXg024358for t-and-f-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug > >2003 08:24:50 -0700 (PDT) > >Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com > >[216.136.174.115])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id > >h7SFOlHD024334for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:24:47 > >-0700 (PDT) > >Received: from host45-235.nu.com (HELO EDWARDPARROT2) > >([EMAIL PROTECTED]@159.108.45.235 with login) by > >smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2003 15:24:35 -0000 > >X-Message-Info: QY4hSA9XRFN52P2gnVLzuO7XYZAg57x0wGeh/pxoSfQ= > >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >X-Priority: 3 > >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 > >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 > >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Precedence: bulk > >Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 15:42:45.0929 (UTC) > >FILETIME=[06D14990:01C36D7B] > > > >Perhaps it's how one defines quality workouts, but I know the group at the > >FILA center was doing this a couple years ago: > > > >-1 day with 25-40x1:00 on/1:00 off, with the "on" minutes at 3K-5K race > >pace and the off minutes a notch or two faster thaneasy distance. > >-1 day with 10-15km of long intervals (1000m-5000m) at 10 km-10 mile race > >pace. > >-1 day of a long uphill run - 50-90 minutes - with a gradual increase in > >pace so the end was very very hard > >-1 day of 30-35k starting a bit slower than maathon pace and finishing a > >bit > >faster. > > > >They had one additional workout in there I believe as well. After the five > >days hard, they'd take 1-2 days easy and then start again. They did this > >for 10 weeks or so and several people got huge marathon PR's. > > > >- Ed > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 10:31 AM > >Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > > > > > Four quality workouts in a row week after week WILL destroy your body > >and > > > WILL overtrain you. In the ONE Geb week no mention is made of what kind > >of > > > "sprint work" he is doing on that day. Hell, anyone can do 10x200 near > >all > > > out with 200 meter recoveries at the end of an easy run everyday but I > > > wouldn't call that a very hard workout. Sprint work isn't made to be > > > tiresome. So in his ONE week we have a long run, a hard tempo-type run, > > > track intervals, and "sprint work". If his sprint work isn't that > >demanding > > > then I don't see how the week is so much different than what has been > > > successful for years. If he truly is running 4 very hard days back to > >back > > > then we have to look and see that is again only ONE week. Now, if he's > >doing > > > this week in and week out then we've have to look and see what he's > >using > >to > > > be able to recover so quickly. I think it's foolish to look at this ONE > >week > > > and conclude that this is how he trains week in and week out. Even if he > > > does do this week in and week out then I think it's foolish to think > >he's > > > doing this without some sort of recovery "enhancement" (growth hormone, > > > synthetic steroid, etc). > > > > > > PS-I too know the effects of running back to back to back to back hard > >days > > > as I did it quite often in high school. 4 hard days a week was the norm > >with > > > some weeks 5 or 6 hard days. I improved for two years then remained > >pretty > > > static. My former college coach used the same system and improvement > >came > > > little by little. When I tried to adapt the same 4 hard day a week > >schedule > > > to a marathon I ended up with an achilles injury. > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > >From: "Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:22:44 -0400 > > > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > >X-Originating-IP: [198.240.130.75] > > > >X-Originating-Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Received: from 198.240.130.75 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with > > > >HTTP;Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:22:44 GMT > > > > > > > >Alan, just read them. Sorry, I don't see the number of intense > >workouts > > > >that would ever suggest to me that any of these guys will be near 2:08 > >or > > > >27:20 let alone 2:05 and 26:22. > > > > > > > >Im talking ablout 4 workouts in a row, 30 miles on Sunday (not 20), > >etc. > > > >There are so many AM: 10, PM: 10 in these logs I am giving myself a > > > >headache. If they were doing hill followeed by tempo, followed by > > > >interval, followed by sprint, all in the midst of 2-a days, 30 miles of > > > >running on Sunday and 2 "easy days" then I will agree. You haven't > >shown > > > >me that yet. > > > > > > > >I had a coach in college who I probably did not respect as much as I > >should > > > >have (Coach Hadsell... if you're out there... here's a shout-out). He > > > >would have us do a hill workout one day followed by a tempo the next > >and > > > >fartleks on the 3rd. I thought I was being over-trained. Turns out I > >was > > > >just a wimp. > > > > > > > >M > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], > > > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:36:05 +0000 > > > >> > > > >>Mike, a lot of Americans are doing this. Check out Rod Dehaven's log: > > > >>www.allsportrunning.com/rodscorner. Check out the Hanson's Runners > >and > > > >>their training: > >http://www.hansons-running.com/ecom/sp/cat=Training+Log > > > >>I don't think it has been shown anywhere that the top US runners are > > > >>running a lot of miles really slow. What I see is a tried and true > >process > > > >>that has been successful for 20-30 years: 100-150 miles a week, a long > >run > > > >>that is usually run pretty fast or at least with fast segments, a long > > > >>workout be it either "threshold" or just long intervals, and a short > > > >>workout consisting of your basic Vo2max type intervals. Some may add a > > > >>hill workout here and there or a short sprint workout here and there > >but > > > >>the basics are still the same: Lots of miles at a moderate or > >sometimes > > > >>fast pace, a long moderate run, two workouts. > > > >> > > > >>Alan > > > >> > > > >>>From: "Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>Reply-To: "Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:03:50 -0400 > > > >>>MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > >>>X-Originating-IP: [198.240.130.75] > > > >>>X-Originating-Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>Received: from mc3-f2.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.236.137]) by > > > >>>mc3-s10.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, > >27 > > > >>>Aug 2003 10:16:41 -0700 > > > >>>Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by > > > >>>mc3-f2.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, > >27 > > > >>>Aug 2003 10:15:49 -0700 > > > >>>Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] > >[127.0.0.1])by > > > >>>darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RH3xHD003414for > > > >>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 > >10:03:59 -0700 > > > >>>(PDT) > > > >>>Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu > > > >>>(8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7RH3x2l003413for t-and-f-outgoing; Wed, 27 > >Aug > > > >>>2003 10:03:59 -0700 (PDT) > > > >>>Received: from hotmail.com (law12-f24.law12.hotmail.com > >[64.4.19.24])by > > > >>>darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RH3uHD003339for > > > >>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:03:56 -0700 (PDT) > > > >>>Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft > >SMTPSVC; > > > >>>Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:03:51 -0700 > > > >>>Received: from 198.240.130.75 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with > > > >>>HTTP;Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:03:50 GMT > > > >>>X-Message-Info: QY4hSA9XRFMHuWZVPb0dcXowdMfwAnNuh9L5WiG3lYE= > > > >>>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 17:03:51.0397 (UTC) > > > >>>FILETIME=[30730950:01C36CBD] > > > >>>Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>Precedence: bulk > > > >>>Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>> > > > >>>I find it interesting that when all of you post you throw names out > >like > > > >>>Pirie, Zatopek and Igloi's. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY'S AMERICANS. > > > >>>Listen, being 25 and having run at least at one time with guys in > >pretty > > > >>>much every distance final at USATF's at one point or another... and > > > >>>because discussing training brings great joy to my life, I can tell > >you > > > >>>that TODAY'S AMERICANS do NOT train as much quality as I would > >imagine > >it > > > >>>would take to run as fast as the E. Africans. In the US we have two > > > >>>mode's of thinking... "easy" mileage or lots of shorter faster runs. > > > >>>People don't undertstand... you need to be doing mileage, fast and > >often, > > > >>>with workouts 3-5 times a week where you focus on ALL aspects of > >running > > > >>>including sprinting! Its not one or the other. Its not 150 miles > >easy > >or > > > >>>80 miles hard. Its 150 miles hard with workouts. > > > >>> > > > >>>M > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>>From: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>Reply-To: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>To: "\"Athletics\"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>>Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:39:12 -0600 > > > >>>> > > > >>>>On hard training. People seem to forget that Pirie, Zatopek and > >Igloi's > > > >>>>runners would run 100+ mile weeks of intervals. People trained > >"harder" > > > >>>>in > > > >>>>that era than in any other. Obviously it didn't produce sub 27:00 > > > >>>>10k's. I > > > >>>>seriously doubt that it's a matter of western runners not training > >hard > > > >>>>enough. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>If there is a mental block my guess it would be more on the lines > >of, > > > >>>>"they're on drugs so we can't beat them." To which I say, go do > >drugs, > > > >>>>but > > > >>>>that's another matter entirely. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>-----Original Message----- > > > >>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of edndana > > > >>>>Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 5:22 PM > > > >>>>To: "Athletics" > > > >>>>Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Joe - > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Well. ..you and I are arguing over semantics, and I don't think > >our > > > >>>>argument has anything to do with whatever "problem" there is. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Five years ago, I sensed more of the "excuse" mentality from > >American > > > >>>>runners - I don't so much any more. Maybe they aren't training hard > > > >>>>enough - I really am not sure - but I don't think we have the same > > > >>>>mentality > > > >>>>problem we used to have. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>As for Geb's hard days in a row, Bruce Lehane's subsequent post > >would > > > >>>>seem > > > >>>>to contradict it. But the world's best marathoners (including > > > >>>>Americans) > > > >>>>have been doing a variation on that for at least 30 years. Derek > >Clayon > > > >>>>may > > > >>>>have been the first to really push that particular envelope, > >although > >I > > > >>>>can't help wondering if Lydiard also did during his experimentation > >in > > > >>>>the > > > >>>>1950's and din't have the same success. I don't know what kind of > > > >>>>training > > > >>>>Khannouchi does, but plenty of the Africans do numerous medium to > >hard > > > >>>>days > > > >>>>in a row. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>For the 5K/10K, true Lydiard disciples did the same thing. > >Lydiard's > > > >>>>hill > > > >>>>phase was five days per week of hills/speed and his speed phase was > >4-5 > > > >>>>days > > > >>>>of speed. As I'm sure you'll agree, this is nothing new. We are > > > >>>>unfortunately victims of the hard-easy philosophy in this country. > >That > > > >>>>sometimes works, even at the elite level, but I don't believe it is > >the > > > >>>>surest way to success. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>- Ed > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>>From: "Joe Rubio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>To: "edndana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>Cc: <"Athletics" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"@mtac2.prodigy.net> > > > >>>>Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:43 PM > > > >>>>Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Ed, > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > You think maybe this is part of our "problem" as a distance > >running > > > >>>> > nation is the fact that we are arguing over a few miles each way > > > >>>>whereas > > > >>>> > athletes in other countries are thinking 120-150 or whatever they > > > >>>> > actually do at whatever pace they actually do it is just plain > >old > > > >>>> > average weekly training if you want to be competitive? > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > Joe > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > edndana wrote: > > > >>>> > > I don't know, I can't classify 150 mpw, which is no less than > > > >>>>probably > > > >>>> > > 80-90% of the world's elite have ever done, as moderate. 120 > >mpw, > > > >>>>sure, > > > >>>> > > that's the very upper end of moderate for an elite male, but > >what > > > >>>>Geb > > > >>>>does > > > >>>> > > does not look like that much less than the top guys have been > >doing > > > >>>>for > > > >>>>30 > > > >>>> > > years. Look at the Olympic 5/10/Mar medalists and they have > >mostly > > > >>>>been > > > >>>> > > doing 120-160 since at least 1972, so we can't call Geb > >moderate > > > >>>>unless > > > >>>>we > > > >>>> > > compare him to guys who were in the small minority. > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > I doubt the median of the top 10 guys in the 5K/10K/Mar has > >changed > > > >>>>all > > > >>>>that > > > >>>> > > much over the past 30 years, and we can't call that moderate. > > > >>>>Knowing > > > >>>>to > > > >>>> > > run 140-160 instead of 200 is old news, and was old news even > >back > > > >>>>when > > > >>>> > > Bowerman made his observation in the early 1970's. > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > - Ed Parrot > > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>> > > From: "Joe Rubio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > > To: "edndana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > > Cc: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > >>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 5:02 PM > > > >>>> > > Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > >>Ed, > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >>"High" mileage by my definition are what a guy like Scobey did > >in > > > >>>>the > > > >>>> > >>early 70's in response to Bedford. 210 a week with a hard > >track > > > >>>>workout > > > >>>> > >>each day at lunch. 12 in the AM, 6 at lunch with interval > >work, > >12 > > > >>>> > >>before dinner every day except Sunday when it was 30 as hard as > >he > > > >>>>could > > > >>>> > >>make it for a month straight. THAT's high mileage and high > > > >>>>intensity. > > > >>>> > >>I'm pretty sure Bill set an AR a few weeks after completing > >that > > > >>>>month. > > > >>>> > >> In my mind, 60-100 a week less than this volume would > >classify > > > >>>>as > > > >>>> > >>moderate. > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >>Joe > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >>edndana wrote: > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >>>I tend to think that Khalid Khannouchi and Deena Drossin would > > > >>>>have > > > >>>> > >>>something to say about who the 2 best distance runners in Norh > > > >>>>America > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > > are > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > >>>if you include marathoners as distance runners. I'm not so > >sure > > > >>>>Regina > > > >>>> > >>>couldn't still break 14:59, either. > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>As for the moderate volume at faster paces, it's certainly not > > > >>>>true of > > > >>>> > >>>today's world class marathoners or cross country runners. And > >if > > > >>>>the > > > >>>> > >>>training schedule for Geb below is accurate, he's doing > >somewhere > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > > between > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > >>>120 and 150 mpw, not exactly "moderate" mileage by most > >standards. > > > >>>>Many > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > > of > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > >>>today's runners are actually doing as much or more mileage and > > > >>>>doing it > > > >>>> > >>>faster. > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>- Ed Parrot > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>> > >>>From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > >>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > >>>Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 2:01 PM > > > >>>> > >>>Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>>Maybe the Americans(and Can men) should take a page out of > >the > > > >>>>books > > > >>>>of > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>the 2 > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>>best distance runners in North America right now-Emilie > >Mondor > > > >>>>and > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>Courtney > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>>Babcock. Mondor broke a 15 year old national record today and > > > >>>>Babcock > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>missed by > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>>.18. > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>Joe Rubio wrote: > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>John, > > > >>>> > >>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>From his 5k, 10k and marathon times I'd guess he's running > >at > > > >>>>5:20 > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > > pace > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > >>>>>for an easier recovery run, 5:00-5:20 for your everyday - > >garden > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > > variety > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > >>>>>long run, maybe even dropping it down to 4:48 pace near the > >end. > > > >>>> > >>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>Something I read from Dellinger a number of years back > >sticks > > > >>>>out in > > > >>>>my > > > >>>> > >>>>>mind. Now I'm paraphrasing here using a badly damaged brain > > > >>>>this AM > > > >>>>of > > > >>>> > >>>>>too much coffee but I believe he said something to the > >effect > > > >>>>that > > > >>>>the > > > >>>> > >>>>>next generation of dominant distance runner will not focus > >on > > > >>>>the > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > > weekly > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > >>>>>mileage so much as they will be running a moderate volume of > > > >>>>weekly > > > >>>> > >>>>>mileage at much faster paces all around. In his estimation, > > > >>>>almost > > > >>>> > >>>>>everything such as long runs and "recovery" days would be > >done > > > >>>>at > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > > approx > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > >>>>>5 minute pace, while still maintaining an appropriate (for > >them) > > > >>>>volume > > > >>>> > >>>>>of work at 1500, 5k and 10k paces. I can dig up the actual > > > >>>>quote > > > >>>>from > > > >>>> > >>>>>his book in the early 80's called "Training for Competitive > > > >>>>Distance > > > >>>> > >>>>>Runners" or something close, published by Runner's World > >Press > > > >>>>in > > > >>>>1984 > > > >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>>(?). > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>Looks like Bill saw the writing on the wall back 20 years > >ago. > > > >>>>Seems > > > >>>> > >>>>>similar to the wall Coe saw in the early 80's as well. > > > >>>> > >>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>Joe > > > >>>> > >>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>John Schiefer wrote: > > > >>>> > >>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>The real question is how does Geb define "easy" on his > > > >>>> > >>>>>>training runs. > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>I'm sure easy for Geb is about 5:45 pace. > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>Schiefer > > > >>>> > >>>>>>--- malmo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Yup Mike, the Letsrun mentality has infected you. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Find one > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>From: Michael Contopoulos > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:02 PM > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Malmo, on Letsrun you noted that what Geb does is > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>pretty standard > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>training. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>I disagree. The guy does 4 days of workouts in a > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>row (not including the > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>in > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>betwen easy hour runs) ON TOP of his 3 hour long run > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>followed by a 1 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>hour > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>run. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>hard 15-30km run > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>1 hour easy > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>sprint workout > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>1 hour easy > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>hills > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>1 hours easy > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>3x1200 to 8x2000 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>w hour easy > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>You tell me that Meb, Pepper, Abdi, Browne, Johnson > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>are doing 4 workouts > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>in > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>consecutive days (with a "sprint" session in > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>there... which of those > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>guys > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>does a "sprint" session?)...on top of a 3 hour run > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>followed by a one > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>hour > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>run once a week... well... round of drinks is on me. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>geb trains much > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>harder > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>than our guys. And he's supremely confident. And > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>he's supremely > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>talented. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>That's pretty darn near impossible to beat. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Reply-To: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>To: "'edndana'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:18:03 -0400 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>I'm basing my wager on this crowd: > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>My guess is that Culpepper is the only one who > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>could run sub-25, with > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Bickford and Kennedy close. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:13.98 ..... Meb Keflezighi (Nik) 01 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:20.56 ......... Mark Nenow (Pum) 86 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:25.61 ..... Alberto Salazar (AW) 82 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:29.16 ...... Craig Virgin (FRRT) 80 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:31.34 ...... Todd Williams (adi) 95 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:33.93 ..... Alan Culpepper (adi) 01 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:37.17 .... Bruce Bickford (NBal) 85 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:38.37 ........ Bob Kennedy (Nik) 99 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:41.05 ........ Ed Eyestone (BYU) 85 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>27:42.83 .... Abdi Abdirahman (Nik) 02 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Of edndana > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:43 PM > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Malmo - > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> I can't tell if you agree or disagree with me > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>from your comment. > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>I may be wrong, as I am largely basing my > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>observations on the people I > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>ran against in high school and college. Most of > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>the people that knew > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>around my ability (9:50 2-mile in HS, 32:00 10K > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>after college) could do > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>between 24.5 and 25.5 seconds. I've done 25.1 in a > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>race and I am not > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>particularly fast (My best 100m is 12.5 wind > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>aided). > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>So, I can only conclude that guys who are 3-5 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>minutes faster than me > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>at 10K could beat me by a few tenths for the 200m. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Most of these guys > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>were a lot faster than me in high school as well. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>It just doesn't seem > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>reasomable that the group of guys running 9:00 in > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>high school is not > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>any faster over 200m than the group of guys running > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>9:45 - as a group. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Now maybe the distance runners slow down over 200m > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>between high school > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>and their mid-20's - I certainly didn't, but I also > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>wasn't doing 100+ > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>miles per week of distance training like I should > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>have been. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>- Ed Parrot > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>To: "'edndana'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:10 PM > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>I'd be a big seller on that claim. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>malmoo > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Behalf Of edndana > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:01 PM > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>Perhaps our 10k guys (and 5k guys) go about > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>training too much like > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>they would for a marathon and don't focus > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>enough on speed. Geb > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>constantly > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>talks > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>about improving his speed. How many of our > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>10k guys can run 24.5 > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>flat > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>out let alone at the end of a 10k? > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>Jeez, I'm sure at least 8 of our top 10 10K guys > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>could run 24.5 all > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>out, if not all of them. They may never > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>actually have done so, but > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>I bet nearly all of them could. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>- Ed Parrot > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > >>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>advanced parental > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>controls. > > > >>>> > >>>>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > >>>>>>__________________________________ > > > >>>> > >>>>>>Do you Yahoo!? > > > >>>> > >>>>>>Yahoo! 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