Hi Murry, thanks, but there's no need to apologize. I am aware that I've made some provocative statements myself. So I probably have to apologize, too.
Basically I think we're on the same page: To my understanding we agree that there's a need to differentiate between the different kinds of baked goods. So the problem is how to classify and name these. But as pretty often I guess that's where trouble starts. To answer your question: A shop selling cake but not bread is called "Konditorei" in German. I am currently not really aware of any shop selling only cookies. I remember a place in France that sold Bagels but mainly as a take away food and that's tagged as amenity=cafe (node #2095562597). If I look at our two mails I see a clear contradiction: To me the primary product of a bakery is bread while for you it's mainly the other non-bread kinds. So I don't see any easy resolution for that. We both have good arguments for our own point of view and both have objections against the other. Both of us see problems of usability for users with the other schema as it might not match expectations. I think that's what's called a tie... A solution might be to do some localization of the tagging. This is probably not a great idea but it has been done before, e.g. for interpretation of highways or administrative boundaries. This would allow the different cultures to tag according to their expectations. Problems would arise for users in the other culture or any global acitivity but I would expect these are the less-frequent applications. But overall I see this only as a kind of workaround. But basically that's how most of OSM works for me: Just let people map as they understand things and don't try to direct things too heavily. A completely unrelated example might be ornithology: In English there's a difference between "swallows" and "martins" while in German both are considered "Schwalben". The same applies for "dove" and "pigeon" where we have only "Taube". The solution in that filed is the use of a completely separate classification in Latin. But this also has the effect that this classification is more or less impractical for daily life and limited to the specialists. That's not the way I would like OSM developing in future. Finally I would agree that anybody else is happily welcome to join the discussion! Michael 2013/6/5 Murry McEntire <murry.mcent...@gmail.com> > > First an apology to Michael for what follows. I know you are allowing for > change by addition of more shop=* tags, but the "tailored" statement makes > me want to get on my soapbox. I know you are not arguing for the status quo. > > I would argue that tagging should also be tailored towards being useful > for and not antagonizing to the local users and taggers of the general > regions on the map. I would like for OSM to become a success in the U.S., > or at least considered a viable alternative to the other major map systems; > but if the average American finds it misleading, or can not find what they > are looking for, they will not use it. In OSM's current state, I can not > recommend it to non-technical family, friends, or acquaintances because it > is too often wrong, or does not contain sufficient information for them to > find what they seek. > > On the other hand, OSM should not be balkanized. So, I would never think > of denying a local Mexican bakery the tag of shop=bakery, or shop=bakery; > bakery_good=bread; or shop=bread (depending on what implementation is used) > even though they do not carry bread as I usually think of it or (I believe) > the average European understands it. An aside, I'm a fan of eating wheat > tortillas like I would loaf bread, but unfortunately have to pass on the > corn ones because of an allergy. > > It would be nice if the OSM tagging system were implemented such that what > is of importance in one area, encourages taggers in another area, where > they may have less importance, to use them in a similar way as opposed to > using them in contrary ways or not tagging because such tags have a > different meaning. If the latter is happening frequently, it is likely a > sign of poor design and choice of tags, or where language differences > exist, a poor matching of word translations. Importance and usefulness for > one group is not a guide to good design if it is a poor implementation for > (many) others. > > I would also think from the European viewpoint, or from anyone valuing > good bread, having a map when visiting the U.S. that allows them to > directly find that shop that specializes in artisan bread instead of having > less than one chance in 20 would be a good thing. But if we keep the status > quo, they will find most U.S. bakeries are cake shops or cookie shops or > pastry shops or some combination that excludes bread. > > It is a given under the status quo, that mappers in the U.S. (hopefully > only in U.S. territory) will tag bread, cake, cookie, pastry, pie, and > other bakery goods shops shop=bakery. That U.S. users will feel frustrated > because they can not get the information that they can easily get from > Google or a business directory app on their smart phone. I can do a search > for "bread shops near Colorado Springs" on Google maps and get a useful and > manageable result. "Bakery shops near Colorado Springs" is useful but I > need to do a lot more sifting of the results. I can even do "cobbler shops > near Colorado Springs" which gives me mostly restaurants, but is a useful > place to start my search; maybe they have a bakery counter (or takeout). I > would like to be able to search (and tag) within OSM such that I get > similar useful information. Following the status quo, I cannot. > > I think change is needed. The current choices make U.S. taggers hesitant > to tag and is not as useful as needed to U.S. users. Bakery shops in the > U.S. are not currently being tagged like the European expectation, nor are > they ever likely to be - doing so would make them less useful here. While > bakeries that specialize in bread may not be as important in the U.S. as in > Europe, we are still talking about hundreds of such shops in the U.S. > Thousands of shops of the other bakery types. (One 2011 industry study I > found says there are 6000 retail bakeries in the U.S.). I would like to > make tagging bread bakeries and the other bakery types useful and sensible > for Americans, primarily as another small step towards OSM acceptance and > use here. > > A question for the Europeans, how do you tag a retail shop that > specializes in only cakes, or only cookies, or only pastries (wikipedia:en > definition) or only pies/tarts; or do such businesses not exist there? If > they do exist and are not identified as such, it tells me you are driving > users from OSM to business directories or Google maps. > > So for solutions for the U.S.: > > The necessities: Distinguishing between the bakery types is important. To > be a useful alternative to other mapping services, I need need something in > the basic data that allows me to distinguish between bakery types, > including something that differentiates a shop that specializes in bread > from all the other types of bakeries. The tag shop=bakery is not working to > identify a bread shop and it would be folly to assume it ever will in the > U.S. since the first assumption of users and taggers here will be that it > is a cake, pastry or pie shop; you get bread at a bread shop. > > The two most discussed of the alternatives: > > The bakery_goods:bread=yes style of tags added to shop=bakery. My > preference for the reasons given in my previous long epistle. They would be > a useful adjunct to some foreign specialty shops here, where bakery goods > may be the second or third most important sales of the shop whereas other > shops in the same category carry none. > > Use of differentiated shop tags: shop=bread, shop=cake, shop=pie, > shop=pastry. I can work with this by putting multiple nodes within the > retail space for shops with two or three of the categories and use > shop=bakery for one that carries many. I will need the shop=bread tag or I > can not make the OSM database useful for Americans. Sorry, you're stuck > with shop=bakery generally meaning a cake store or > bakery-goods-except-bread shop in the U.S.. I think it futile to try to > teach U.S. users and taggers a misuse of their language. I would probably > find it offensive if someone arbitrarily removed the shop=bakery tag from > non-bread shops I entered or changed a (future) shop=bread entry to > shop=bakery, and would change them back unless a better alternative > existed. > > With any change, perhaps a locality page for the U.S. that lays out how > mapping shops that sell bakery goods are tagged differently than in > continental Europe is needed. I would hope one of the two above solutions > or another good solution would make it unnecessary. > > Someone else may now have the soapbox :-) >
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