Hello ! I have in mind my trouble when driving back from Amsterdam toward France. I knew I had to pass through Lille but I did not see it on the directional signs. (No gps device back in the days ;-) ) I understood at last close to the border that the Rijsel I saw all the time on the signs means Lille >_<
Rijsel is not used in France. But it would be very useful to display it on a map as it it used only several kilometers from the city. djakk Le mer. 19 sept. 2018 à 09:57, Jo <winfi...@gmail.com> a écrit : > Every street in Brussels HAS a name:fr tag. They also ALL have a name:nl > tag. > > An IPA representation also needs information about the language it is for. > A name, even spelled with the exact same characters will be pronounced > differently by a French speaker compared to a Ducht speaker. Sometimes very > differently, sometimes it's simply a matter of which syllable to stress. > > Polyglot > > Op wo 19 sep. 2018 om 04:43 schreef Joseph Eisenberg < > joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: > >> Paul, >> >> Thank you for your comments. >> Have you read the complete Proposal page >> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format>? >> Perhaps I need to improve the wording to clarify some of your concerns >> >> >”I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language the >>>> renderer 'should' use.” >>>> >>>> By recording each name in a separate “name:<code>=*” tag, database >>>> users and map makers will be able to pick the best name for their audience. >>>> >>> >>> The best name for the audience is the one which matches the signage. It >>> does me no good to see an English >>> translation of a Russian street sign. >>> >> >> This is true if your database use case is rendering a map for a local >> audience. That's why the Openstreetmap Carto style renders names this way. >> This proposal will not change the way names are rendered on the standard >> map, except in the rare case where, for example, "name:fr=*" is present on >> a feature in France but the "name=*" tag is missing. In this case it will >> now render properly. >> >> But not all names are street or shop names. There are internationally >> know features, like Mt Everest and the Yellow River, which have well-known >> names in many names, which are quite different than the locally used name. >> Take a look at the current rendering of Nepal or China. The Openstreetmap >> Carto style is useful if you are in Nepal and want to find a sign point you >> towards Mt Everest, but a person sitting at their computer in Brazil will >> have trouble finding the mountain on the standard map style. >> >> The French style already renders names in French preferentially, but this >> loses the information about the locally used name. I agree that this is a >> problem! >> But with the current use of names, it's not possible to make an >> international map style that shows French names and the locally name at the >> same time. >> If you try to render "name:fr=*" and "name=*" together, you'll render the >> French name twice for every street in Brussels >> >> >>> The only thing the map should render is the name as it is displayed on >>> signage. >>> >> >> For local routing yes, for Openstreetmap Carto yes, but all applications? >> Not always >> >> >>> It would also be useful if the IPA characters representing how a local >>> would pronounce that name is present so applications could feed that >>> to text-to-speech. >>> >> >> Yes! IPA is a great idea. I believe "name:ipa=*" could work for this. >> Want to write up a proposal? :-) >> >> >>> It is also somewhat useful, for multilingual signage, to use name:xx and >>> name:yy to hold the individual >>> language components of that name. >>> >> >> You've got it! That's exactly what we want to encourage. If every street >> in Brussels has name:fr=xx and name:nl=yy, the French map style could >> render both. >> (<joke> Or being the French, they might just render "name:fr=yy", but >> there's nothing to be done about that. <joke>) >> >>> >>> The local name still needs to be specified so that database users know >>>> what name or names are actually used “on the ground” vs foreign names. The >>>> default language format tag makes this possible, but separates this >>>> function from the name=* tag. And the proposal includes a language:local >>>> tag so that all local names can be shown, even those that are less common >>>> or in a minority language. >>>> >>> >>> No, no and thrice no. >>> >> >> ??? What are you objecting to here? The "language:local=<lg>" tag? >> This will not be rendered by Openstreetmap Carto style or anyone really. >> It just lets database users that certain languages are actually locally >> used names, vs foreign names. >> >> For example, Puncak Trikora (id) / Wilhelmina Top (nl) / Mount Trikora >> (en) is the 2nd or 3rd tallest mountain in Indonesia. It's currently tagged >> with name="Puncak Trikora", which is appropriate, because that's the name >> used in Indonesian, the official langauge, and would be recognized by most >> people in the country. But there is also a local name in the Lani language, >> which is only known to people who live closest to the mountain and isn't >> used on any offical signs. This language:local= tag would show that the >> Lani name for the mountain is in fact a local name, not a foreign language >> name. >> >> It's probably not a tag that will be used much in Europe, where minority >> languages often have official recognition and signage, but it will be quite >> helpful in parts of the world with many languages, particularly for >> mountains and rivers that may have foreign names from the colonial period. >> >> >>> If this proposal is implemented, map makers and database users will have >>>> many more options for using names in data or as map labels. >>>> >>> >>> Why would they want to? What possible use does it serve? Most street >>> names and even place names are opaque. >>> They may once have had meaning but no longer do. Near me is "Market >>> Lane" but at neither end of it is there a market. >>> Back in medieval times there was a market, perhaps, but it's been >>> hundreds of years since there was a market there. >>> Several miles from me is Felin Wen. That's Welsh for "White Mill." >>> It's not been a mill for many, many years. >>> >> >> It's incorrect to tag name:en=White Mill, then, because the local name >> used by English speakers is "Felin Wen." >> >> I believe this is clear on the name:<lg>= wiki page and the name=* tag >> page, but I'd be happy to put in a clearer definition there, if necessary. >> >> I absolutely agree that no one should be making up translated name:<lg>= >> tags. The language-specific name tags should only be used for names that >> exist in the real world, on the ground. >> >> >>> For example, a vector map on a smartphone app could show names in the >>>> user’s language by default. But when the user selects a feature by tapping >>>> or clicking, the name on the local language would also be shown. >>>> >>> >>> Wrong way around. The sane thing to do is show the local name, because >>> that's what I'd be looking for on signage. >>> >> >> Sure, good point, the other way around would be best for most purposes. >> App designers will now have the choice, and users can decide what >> settings they prefer. >> The app could even detect the user's location and use that to help guess >> what name lables to show. >> When I'm in China, I'll want to see the names in Chinese characters, but >> when I'm back home in the USA and just browsing around, it would be nice to >> be able to recognize the Yangtze or Yellow River, or Mount Everest, on the >> map. >> >> Joseph >> _______________________________________________ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >
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