Stuart,
If you would like to start in Swanley, that would be fine with me. I
don't know about my neighbouring mappers, but I certainly use tools to
check what edits are taking place in areas I have an interest. I
strongly suggest you keep the area small, and use my area as a guinea
pig, perhaps detailing what your aim is on a wiki page.
As you've gathered 'mass imports' are something we all dread as we've
put so much time & effort into producing something useful, and we don't
want to see it trampled.
If you've got the route data available to you, you'll probably find that
most of the 'not physically present' relate to the route now going
elsewhere, which is why I've got bus stops elsewhere without NaPTAN
data. It does get more complicated as I have two or more authorities
involved.
It's good to talk - I'll let you know if I'm unhappy & you're welcome to
contact me if you have a query.
Regards & Good luck.
Nick (Tallguy)
On 31/07/14 17:41, Stuart Reynolds wrote:
Many thanks - some interesting viewpoints there.
I think it is safe to say that things will have improved from 2009,
but also fair to admit that some data is not structured in the way
that even I would like. Yorkshire is a particular problem for us. The
good thing though is that NaPTAN is downloadable on an authority by
authority basis and so we have scope for working through issues
relatively local basis and perhaps later picking off authorities for
individual "auto updates" once we've all agreed what that entails.
On specifics, it is never going to be the case that NaPTAN will come
from OSM. However, I'm keen to identify mismatches - missing stops in
Swanley might be TfL infrastructure for example, while "stop not
present" might represent "custom and practice" stops or virtual points
on a hail and ride route. Where we can, we can update data.
Looking to the future I am also keen to use OSM for those things that
NaPTAN doesn't describe or which there is little will to populate. But
that is a whole new discussion for another time.
Would anyone who has made edits like to volunteer an area for me to
start with? I live in Southend, and have direct contact with SE
authorities and indirect contact with SW, EM and EA.
Regards
Stuart
On 31 Jul 2014, at 17:02, "Nick Allen" <nick.allen...@gmail.com
<mailto:nick.allen...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi,
I would not wish to see a mass import in my area, but I could see
some merit in comparing data 'line by line'. I can remember that in
the early days (2009?) there were bus stops on the data at the time
that NaPTAN was imported. Some were sensibly merged, but some were
deleted before the value of merging was realised (I was probably as
ignorant of how to sort it out properly in those days, as anyone
else, so I don't think a witch hunt will help).
Since then, I've made many cycle surveys in my area, and have updated
NaPTAN stops to the extent that anything I have edited in the past is
now in the right place & the tags will be correct. However, some of
the imported data was so inaccurate, that it was difficult to tell
whether it should be moved North, South East or West, to where the
nearest actual stop was. As a result of this, it is quite possible
that there are stops shown in the right place with the correct tags
concerning shelters, benches, tactile paving, name of stop,
timetables or bus route references displayed, etc, but added to a
NaPTAN reference which new data would show to actually be elsewhere.
The only way of improving this would be a line by line comparison,
with perhaps the transfer of a reference from new NaPTAN data, to the
existing OSM data. If I appear in the history of the bus stop (Ctrl+h
using JOSM), then there is a bus stop in that exact location. I
suspect that this is true of many stops elsewhere, so some cautionary
line by line merging is going to be needed.
I use the NOVAM - viewer from http://b3e.net/novam/ to check what
needs doing, (Birmingham colour scheme suits my purpose). If you use
this & zoom into Swanley, Kent (just off J3 of M25), you will find
there are several stops which I have created, for which there is no
NaPTAN data in the current database. It would obviously be sensible
to add that data if you have it - just don't move the stop or change
the other tags I've added please. You'll also see that I have marked
some bus stops as 'not physically present'......
I think most mappers have worked from
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Surveying_and_Merging_NaPTAN_and_OSM_data
(history shows this was last updated in 2011 with most of the updates
from 2009), but there are more recent articles at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_Transport, and I'm not sure
of what the current position is as the 'goal posts kept moving!'
Some sensible consultation aiming towards a goal we can understand
and achieve would be good, because I personally just reached the
stage where I made sure the bus stops were in the correct place with
the right tags, and left the routes part completed.
I can't offer to spend time importing on a line by line basis - I'm
currently trying to get Ebola areas mapped in Africa! If I can help
in other ways, let me know - it makes sense to me to present the data
in a way it can actually be used by someone!
Regards
Nick (Tallguy)
On 31/07/14 15:47, Chris Hill wrote:
The NaPTAN data was imported for Hull and East Yorkshire at my
request. I quickly realised that the data was of variable quality
and resurveyed the ~1300 bus stops in Hull. Having corrected a large
percentage of the stops, I informed the Hull council team, at their
request, who then ignored me. I would not want any NaPTAN data
re-imported in this area unless I was sure the quality has very
substantially improved. Some working relationship with the council
team who maintain the data would help too.
Cheers, Chris,
osm user: chillly
On 31 July 2014 15:15:18 GMT+01:00, Stuart Reynolds
<stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:
Hi,
This is a spin off from the recent thread about imports, because
I wanted to specifically talk about NaPTAN imports.
Having briefly scanned the various wiki pages, I get the
impression that the NaPTAN data was imported, once, in 2009.
What I can’t see, or haven’t found, is any discussion about how
& how often this data is updated. NaPTAN (and associated NPTG)
is a live data set, and is changing continually as bus stops are
brought into use (e.g. new developments) and taken out of service.
As I think I have mentioned, one of the reasons that I am now on
this group is because of the adoption of OSM by a number of
traveline regions, whose members are the very local authorities
that create and maintain the NaPTAN data (including
Nottingham/Nottinghamshire, since that was mentioned in the
earlier thread). We therefore have an interest in making sure
that the stop data on OSM is as up to date as the mapping.
Is there an appetite within the community to maintain and update
this data? And if so, how would we go about it, and how often
might it be updated? For the record, the data set is change
dated, and deleted records are retained in the data for
reference until (eventually) being archived (although even then
the stops are still contained in a separate archive file). So I
think that the process of updating can be made a) robust, and b)
reversible.
Regards,
Stuart
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http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy
Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for
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