Sorry, this one... -- 🌍 Miguel Sevilla-Callejo from my mobile 📱 ---------- Mensaje reenviado ---------- De: "Miguel Sevilla-Callejo" <msevill...@gmail.com> Fecha: 14/8/2017 0:42 Asunto: Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales Para: "Andy Townsend" <ajt1...@gmail.com> Cc:
Dear all, I'm so frustrated reading your emails. I've living in Aberystwyth for two years before I came this summer. I know the place, the people and the situation about the language. Despite I do not have too many editions in OSM I'm involve actively in Spanish community and I consider myself an good editor following the wiki, working within the community and improving the data. In other hand I'm PhD in Geography and I work with GIS and analyzing the territory and teaching Geography. Unfortunately, as you can read, English is not my mother tongue. Sorry about that. First, if you think the wiki is wrong maybe you could work to improve it starting a discussion. What do you expect from a new collaborator? Does he/she have to ask directly to you? Second, despite other pages of the wiki, the page about multilingual tagging I guess is OK as far as I know: the situation in Wales is the same than in Basque Country where we tag name=neutral, Basque and Spanish (check the wiki). Third, although English is the language we use to tag, "name" tag is not equal to name:en out of England or other ONLY English speaker places. It's a shame see than in other villages in Ceredigion the streets in OpenStreetMap are tag name=English_name and, if exists name:cy=Welsh_name. Have a look to New Quay for instance. In Ceredigion - I guess some of you prefer to call it Cardiganshire - people are bilingual - they speak Welsh, no only for fun, and English - and the street signs are in both languages (Andy, have a look of the photos in Mapillary, please). So, it's common sense to follow not MY approach, the WIKI approach: name=neutral + name:cy + name:en Please, could you provide a good reason not to do this? I hope something different than a aesthetic one or a preference from you who NOT live in Wales. As Brian said definitely we need more people here, in Wales. By the way, thanks for your comprehensive reply. I'm trying to envolve some Welsh colleagues in OSM and promoting our wonderful mapping project around. I hope someone could help us to understand better the place. Cheers -- 🌍 Miguel Sevilla-Callejo from my mobile 📱 El 13/8/2017 19:04, "Andy Townsend" <ajt1...@gmail.com> escribió: On 11/08/2017 17:19, Brian Prangle wrote: ... and goes to the first source of what is seen to be the authoritative source - the wiki- to seek guidance, Unfortunately, the wiki isn't always "the authoritative source". Articles written there include both "descriptive" and "prescriptive" ones - saying how mappers currently map things, and telling them how they _should_ map things. When it comes to "how to map things" often there needs to be a discussion, because no one person has the whole picture. Sometimes people writing wiki articles take great care to represent the different views where they exist and try and thread a consensus course through them (Harry Wood please take a bow at this point); and sometimes they don't. For example, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks says that "The simplest method is to tag the associated highway with sidewalk <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk>=both/left/right/no (none is sometimes used, but no is preferred <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk>)", despite https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk#values showing that "none" is the more popular value. I tried to make the wiki reflect usage but it was immediately changed back because "The statement never described predominant usage, but preferred usage. That hasn't changed.". Clearly someone thinks that _they_ know better than me and the majority of sidewalk mappers in OSM. Rather than "insisting" it is correct as per https://www.xkcd.com/386/ I decided that life was too short. I suspect that something rather similar has happened with regard to language tagging in Wales. and then asks, from etiquette, what the local community thinks, To be fair, from reading the emails it doesn't read to me like that was what was happening; it reads very much like he was telling everyone that disagreed with him that they were wrong without offering any reasoning beyond "the wiki says...". Unfortunately every multiple-language situation is complicated (and with a DWG hat on I've been involved in quite a few). Some communities (Belgium being a notable early example) have settled on a compound "name" that doesn't reflect any language name on the ground but is intended to indicate that both have equal value; some - possibly the majority, but not by much - go with name as the "most used value" - so "Eteläinen Rautatiekatu" rather than the rather large mouthful "Eteläinen Rautatiekatu / Södra Järnvägsgatan"* for the street in Helsinki that I used to stay when working there, despite all street signs being bilingual. Some have gone for locally-relevant variations of both. However it's always the wishes of the local mappers that should hold most sway (and, again from personal experience with a DWG hat on, that can get difficult when one community is under-represented in OSM). *Can this discussion specifically address what is wrong with the wiki page on Welsh placenames https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales> and suggest improvements?* I'd start by asking some more Welsh mappers! So far we've had the person who created the original cyosm map arguing against a compound name, along with a number of (very) frequent visitors from England. Other than the person who raised the issue we've not yet had much of a balancing population on the other side of the argument; but not everyone follows changeset discussion comments or this list. When the status of Western Sahara was raised with the DWG I went through a fairly long process which started at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#p602864 to ensure that everyone's views could be taken on board and to make sure that no-one was missed - I made sure that ever mapper in the region who'd recently mapped affected objects had a comment in a changeset discussion (and if no reply a direct message) in what appeared to be their usual language. Contacting _every_ mapper who's mapped in Wales is unlikely to be feasible but contacting a subset of regular mappers (perhaps based edit count > a certain value) and based on some sort of "edits in Wales" criterion could be doable, but based on the Western Sahara survey I'd expect that it'd be a sizable amount of effort; just putting up a "web survey" form somewhere and hoping people come to it won't cut it. If after that sort of discussion there's still opposition to "compound names" in Wales I'd suggest that an initial change to the wiki page would be the removal of the section added by "Männedorf" in 2014 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingua l_names&type=revision&diff=1121276&oldid=1116200 that introduced the idea in the first place - but we need to make sure that people even know about the issue first. I'm also hoping that this discussion might kickstart OMSUK's Welsh language render project Well good luck with that :) https://www.loomio.org/d/P15nY vqg/getting-the-uk-map-going- seems to be somewhat moribund; maybe a specific language render get people to actually start doing something rather than suggesting "things that it would be cool to do"? As I said in the loomio thread, if anyone wants any specific help about e.g. "how to do X with lua" (or even "what do I need to do to set up a server at Hetzner") let me know. Best Regards, Andy (for the avoidance of doubt, writing in an entirely personal capacity) * South(ern) Railway Street _______________________________________________ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
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