Thanks Alan,
There's a bunch to chew on there, it's going to take me a few days to
move through the docs. It sounds like what you're suggesting, though,
is that the place=hamlet tag really is appropriate for neighborhoods,
which is fine. Are you commenting at all on its appropriateness for
trailer parks and apartment developments? I may convert some of the
Oakland hamlets to named landuse=residential to see what happens.
I don't actually know what the main OSM tile rendering will do with
these. =)
-mike.
On Nov 28, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Alan Brown wrote:
In commercial data, a category called hamlet is use dfor either
neighborhoods, or small unincorporated settlements. I've used them
for neighborhoods in OSM mostly because I want to see them rendered
- while it would be better to model them with descriptive names.
(Formal point-of-interest - "city centers" - all fall into the same
category, but have different "population classes". It's nearly
identical to the module used for "place" point features, although
population ranges are formally set for each place type. There's
also ways to flag is something is a national capitol, state capitol,
or county seat.)
A lot of the discussion held here came up years ago when they
designed the GDF specification - (Geographic Data Files). This is
an exchange format. A lot of that specification has to with the
format of the ascii file - which is irrelevant to our discussion -
but it also deals with features types and categories. This is the
format that various navigation systems and online map companies
receive before converting it into their own proprietary access format.
Here's a short wikipedia summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_Data_Files
Here's a link to an old version of the specification:
http://www.ertico.com/en/links/links/gdf_-_geographic_data_files.htm
This version (3.0) came out 13 years ago. It's since been
significantly enhanced - both by ISO, and by Tele Atlas and NAVTEQ.
The enhancements add a lot of subtlety, particularly to POI
categories. The unfortunate thing is that Tele Atlas and NAVTEQ
versions are not 100% compatible with each other, and no one fully
complies with the ISO standard. The attributes of the 3.0 spec are
largely followed.
The Annexes are probably the best place to start, and it contains an
appendix of feature categories - while chapters 5, 6, and 7 describe
features in detail.
While this spec doesn't resolve the "hamlet vs. neighborhood" issue
- and it doesn't flesh out details for bicycle routes and paths - it
has a lot of sophistication for things like different types of
highway ramps, turn restrictions, dealing with road connectivity,
etc., etc. I know they want to give people the ability to tag
things in new ways, but if OSM has aspirations of becoming a
routable database, things have to fall into predictable categories
for software to interpret them.
-Alan
From: Scott Atwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Michal Migurski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:25:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Bay Area trailer parks: "hamlet" ? Also
neighborhoods & cities
On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Michal Migurski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Hi,
There are a large number of mobile home / trailer parks mapped in San
Jose, Santa Clara, and other parts of the South Bay. They're tagged
place=hamlet, and I'm wondering if there's a better way to identify
them? Beej71, if you're on this list I think a lot of these came from
you.
Examples here:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.3995&lon=-122.01521&zoom=15&layers=B000FTFT
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.37096&lon=-121.89402&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF
"Hamlet" is supposed to be "defined by national/state/provincial
government" yet these aren't really defined by anyone except their
owners. I personally view them as generally equivalent to named
apartment complexes, and therefore not a place. May I suggest that
they be redrawn as landuse=residential areas, with names defined?
On a related topic, I'm also wondering how to handle parts of cities
that are "places" or neighborhoods yet not administratively distinct,
e.g. "West Oakland" (Oakland), "The Mission" (SF), etc. Would
place=neighborhood make sense here?
This part of West Oakland with two named apartment complexes (all
place=hamlet) illustrates what I mean:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.8096&lon=-122.29504&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF
I think people (including me) have been using/misusing place=hamlet
for places like neighborboods which have variable official status
because there isn't really a good alternative. I think there is a
need for place=neighborhood, or something like it. Whatever we come
up with ought to be a solution that handles both the traditional,
informal notion of a neighborhood, which tends to be relatively
small and often has nebulous borders, as well as more formal notions
like the districts of Berlin, or the arrondissements of Paris with
official status and well defined borders.
-Scott
--
Scott Atwood
Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia. ~H.G. Wells
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