Using the hamlet value seems like a forced fit. Why not just use place=neighborhood then? So what if it's not "approved"? Use it widely, then request for it to be rendered. Problem solved.
Karl On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Michal Migurski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks Alan, > > There's a bunch to chew on there, it's going to take me a few days to move > through the docs. It sounds like what you're suggesting, though, is that the > place=hamlet tag really is appropriate for neighborhoods, which is fine. Are > you commenting at all on its appropriateness for trailer parks and apartment > developments? I may convert some of the Oakland hamlets to named > landuse=residential to see what happens. > > I don't actually know what the main OSM tile rendering will do with these. > =) > > -mike. > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Alan Brown wrote: > > In commercial data, a category called hamlet is use dfor either > neighborhoods, or small unincorporated settlements. I've used them for > neighborhoods in OSM mostly because I want to see them rendered - while it > would be better to model them with descriptive names. (Formal > point-of-interest - "city centers" - all fall into the same category, but > have different "population classes". It's nearly identical to the module > used for "place" point features, although population ranges are formally set > for each place type. There's also ways to flag is something is a national > capitol, state capitol, or county seat.) > > A lot of the discussion held here came up years ago when they designed the > GDF specification - (Geographic Data Files). This is an exchange format. A > lot of that specification has to with the format of the ascii file - which > is irrelevant to our discussion - but it also deals with features types and > categories. This is the format that various navigation systems and online > map companies receive before converting it into their own proprietary access > format. > > Here's a short wikipedia summary: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_Data_Files > > Here's a link to an old version of the specification: > > http://www.ertico.com/en/links/links/gdf_-_geographic_data_files.htm > > This version (3.0) came out 13 years ago. It's since been significantly > enhanced - both by ISO, and by Tele Atlas and NAVTEQ. The enhancements add > a lot of subtlety, particularly to POI categories. The unfortunate thing is > that Tele Atlas and NAVTEQ versions are not 100% compatible with each other, > and no one fully complies with the ISO standard. The attributes of the 3.0 > spec are largely followed. > > The Annexes are probably the best place to start, and it contains an > appendix of feature categories - while chapters 5, 6, and 7 describe > features in detail. > > While this spec doesn't resolve the "hamlet vs. neighborhood" issue - and > it doesn't flesh out details for bicycle routes and paths - it has a lot of > sophistication for things like different types of highway ramps, turn > restrictions, dealing with road connectivity, etc., etc. I know they want > to give people the ability to tag things in new ways, but if OSM has > aspirations of becoming a routable database, things have to fall into > predictable categories for software to interpret them. > > -Alan > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Scott Atwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To:* Michal Migurski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *Cc:* talk-us@openstreetmap.org > *Sent:* Friday, November 28, 2008 12:25:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Talk-us] Bay Area trailer parks: "hamlet" ? Also > neighborhoods & cities > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Michal Migurski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> There are a large number of mobile home / trailer parks mapped in San >> Jose, Santa Clara, and other parts of the South Bay. They're tagged >> place=hamlet, and I'm wondering if there's a better way to identify >> them? Beej71, if you're on this list I think a lot of these came from >> you. >> >> Examples here: >> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.3995&lon=-122.01521&zoom=15&layers=B000FTFT >> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.37096&lon=-121.89402&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF >> >> "Hamlet" is supposed to be "defined by national/state/provincial >> government" yet these aren't really defined by anyone except their >> owners. I personally view them as generally equivalent to named >> apartment complexes, and therefore not a place. May I suggest that >> they be redrawn as landuse=residential areas, with names defined? >> >> On a related topic, I'm also wondering how to handle parts of cities >> that are "places" or neighborhoods yet not administratively distinct, >> e.g. "West Oakland" (Oakland), "The Mission" (SF), etc. Would >> place=neighborhood make sense here? >> >> This part of West Oakland with two named apartment complexes (all >> place=hamlet) illustrates what I mean: >> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.8096&lon=-122.29504&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF > > > I think people (including me) have been using/misusing place=hamlet for > places like neighborboods which have variable official status because there > isn't really a good alternative. I think there is a need for > place=neighborhood, or something like it. Whatever we come up with ought to > be a solution that handles both the traditional, informal notion of a > neighborhood, which tends to be relatively small and often has nebulous > borders, as well as more formal notions like the districts of Berlin, or the > arrondissements of Paris with official status and well defined borders. > > -Scott > > > -- > Scott Atwood > > Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia. ~H.G. Wells > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > michal migurski- [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 415.558.1610 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > >
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