Alex Mauer <ha...@hawkesnest.net> writes: > On 08/11/2009 06:10 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: > >> But, is "abandoned" really in use in other countries to mean what in the >> US we call "old railroad grade"? (Here I am taking USGS norms to be >> established practice in the US.) > > Probably not; however, it is accepted practice in OSM. As you say, > someone with more familiarity with railroad procedures and how they > differ between the US and elsewhere might be able to answer that.
I think one of the bugs in OSM is failure to follow established practice. But that's not worth worrying about in this case. >> The Surface Transportation Board of the ICC makes abandonment decisions, >> and they are published by the federal government. An example: >> >> http://regulations.vlex.com/vid/railroad-abandonment-lamoille-valley-22682301 >> >> I'm not saying this is trivial to find, > > I think that's a big understatement. I would go so far as to say that > it's nearly impossible to take an arbitrary piece of railroad track and > determine whether it's abandoned or out of service (in the US legal > sense) -- or indeed, whether it's in fact still in service. For tracks that are not abandoned, in service or out of service is determined by the railroad. > If my understanding is correct: > * This several page document describes just one section of track. So > there are many, many of these documents. > * This document just lists an intent to abandon a section of railroad. > It may or may not have been accepted by the relevant authority (although > it probably was) > > Can you provide an example of the steps one would have to go through to > actually find this out for a specific piece of track? As far as I can > tell it would involve trawling through > http://www.stb.dot.gov/decisions/readingroom.nsf/DailyReleases?OpenView > or http://www.gpoaccess.gov/fr/advanced.html (the latter of which only > goes back to 1995, and the former of which goes back to 1996) > > So you might be able to find out if it *is* abandoned (If you're really > lucky it's on your other link at http://www.trainweather.com/aban.html) > but even that's extremely difficult, and it's even less possible to > determine that it's not abandoned. It seems that the only way to do so > is to go through every single abandonment notice, and if it's not on any > of them, then it's probably not abandoned after 1995 -- though it would > be easy to miss it among the huge number of documents. And if it is on > one of those abandonment notices, then you have to somehow figure out if > the abandonment was approved. Yes, it is hard to find out, but that does not make it unverifiable. I suspect one can write to the STB and ask and find out, although I haven't tried. You are applying an unreasonable standard. Abandonment is an established legal fact through government decisions and final notices From the railroad. This is no different than whether a street has been accepted as a public way, and is easier than whether the public has a right of access to a particular place (easements and adverse possesion), or where property lines are. If this distinction -- which those working on rail trails are keenly aware of (usually entirely clear about a particular section) -- is objectionable because it is hard to verify, then we need to get rid of a lot of 'access=no' etc, and reconsider the whole notion of showing park boundaries. That's clearly not the right thing to do.
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