I use potlatch almost exclusively (every so often, I play with merkaator), and I guess I'd just like to say that I think potlatch is the the ducks nuts. You've done a sterling job, Richard (and others, but I get the feeling the majority is still Richard slaving away making the app a fine bit of kit, with only occasional forays into the mailing list to defend the honour of potlatch), and I for one appreciate it.
Given that a large chunk of the mapping I do is long 4WD tracks, potlatch really is the way to go Richard, don't let the great JOSM unwashed get you down... :) Cheers Matt vegard wrote: > On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 11:57:08PM +0100, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > >> While I'm here I might as well say something about the lack of a Save >> button. >> >> I'm not violently against the concept: I think "unconvinced" is >> perhaps the best way to describe my opinion. >> >> There are two big issues with it. One is that for edit sessions >> lasting more than a couple of seconds, there has to be conflict >> management. If you're a JOSM user, then you are de facto a clued-up, >> computer-savvy type, so conflict management doesn't worry you. But if >> you are a newbie - maybe even a schoolkid - trying just to edit your >> local area, then being presented with "The following conflicts were >> detected. Accept/Resolve/Revert?" will just utterly confuse you, and >> you'll click the wrong thing and cause more errors. Or maybe just >> close Potlatch and never return to OSM. >> > > Well. I'm a bit unconvinced that we need to attract everyone, even these > people :) > > And as for schoolkids - I think even schoolkids can learn JOSM. Heck, I > even have example to prove it: A 9 year old nephew that's recently > started doing his own tagging in JOSM :) Of course, his father looks over > the things he's done from time to time... > > Personally, *I* don't dare using Potlach for the lack of a "save" button. > Yes, I'll do it for the quick change (moving a single node, changing a > property) that I see while looking at the map, but not for more things. > I just find it too dangerous. > > >> The second is that, in JOSM, your "canvas" is usually quite small - >> i.e. you have downloaded a particular area and are working on that >> exclusively. In Potlatch, because you can pan around an infinite map, >> your canvas may be much bigger. You may have traced a 600km cycle >> route (I know, I've done that! :) ) in one session. Yet you can't >> zoom out to see the whole thing, because requesting a 600km bounding >> box would break both the server and the browser. So you would be >> clicking "Save" to upload changes that you can't actually see or >> review, and that - in my opinion - defeats the point of it. >> > > Point taken. > > >> What worries me most, because I've seen it before, is that people are >> seizing on the first thing they don't like, and thinking that's the >> reason why there are bad edits. People used to criticise Potlatch for >> causing bad edits because there was no 'revert' feature, so I added a >> revert feature (the H key). Then they criticised Potlatch for causing >> bad edits because there was no 'test' mode, so I added a test mode. >> Then they criticised Potlatch because there was no 'splash screen' >> explaining things, so I added a splash screen. Now they criticise >> Potlatch because there's no compulsory 'save' button. >> > > Well. Yes. We critize. Based on what we see people actually manage to do > despite these safety measures...Granted, I thought the test mode would > help *much* more. And it helped, but not enough. Revert-button is great, > but you'll have to know that you need to revert and not just quit the > browser... > > >> the bad edits. The bad edits are principally because these guys are >> newbies. Newbies make mistakes. (Experienced users don't make >> mistakes with Potlatch just because it has no Save button.) >> > > *Ehem* - I don't trust myself not to :) Enough to not daring to use it > for more advanced work. > > >> And in a week's time, someone would be saying "Potlatch must be >> banned unless it has a pony" (or something) and there'd be a lot of >> postings saying "yes, the reason there are all these bad edits is >> BECAUSE POTLATCH HAS NO PONY". And so, a few weeks later, Potlatch >> would get a pony, which would make it even harder to use (ponies are >> quite stubborn, you know) and require newbies to learn even more, and >> then someone would decide on another "reason" for the bad edits... >> and so on. >> >> > > You are right, this is an endless task. But it's a necessary task. Bad > edits are annoying as hell to the people who worked hard with them in > the first time. Tools should be as foolproof as possible. And I would not > too afraid to scare away someone by adding a submit button and conflict > management, done wisely it need not be too annoying. But I'm no flash > programmer :) > > And no, I don't want to ban potlach. But it needs to do more to stop the > accidental bad edits :) > > Other than these, I have some suggestions for minor improvements that > might help against some of this: > > What about... > > 1) Not allowing to merge things with different properties (unless one of > them was non-tagged). > > 2) Not allowing to drag non-nodes so easily? Could be annoying, granted, but > it's actually very seldom you need to? > > 3) Make it harder to delete things? Not allowing to delete something you > didn't create (or owned at the start of the session) ? > > Potlach is obviously popular, and I recognize that we get lots of useful > contribution through it too. But I do understand the rage of people who > experience bad edits through it. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1724 - Release Date: 10/14/2008 > 2:02 AM > > _______________________________________________ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
