What the hell are y'all talking about? Have you been drinking from Mixon's well or something. If cavers want to see more recreational trip reports etc, then SUBMIT them!
Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:34 AM, freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com> wrote: > I think that you will find a lot of us "unscientific" or sport cavers agree > with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go > caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty > years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the > scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover > the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry > boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the > needs of cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted > so far toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or > scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the > organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us > started caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science > related career. Now, many cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving > just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel > like we have to justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific > research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and > start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion > of course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the > letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from the > academic types. > > Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title) > > > --- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com <mark.al...@l-3com.com> wrote: > > From: mark.al...@l-3com.com <mark.al...@l-3com.com> > Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A > Discussion > To: texascavers@texascavers.com > Cc: "Mimi Jasek" <mjca...@gmail.com> > Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM > > Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and > distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few > years and whose opinions I highly respect. > > > In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by > crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi > Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into > the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. > > > > > My responses are in BOLD TYPE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically > oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like > myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We > are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual > activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We > cave, we map, we take pictures. > > > > Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for > the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if > we haven't been there, it's "virgin" to us! > > > > What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving > would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism > from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and > expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read > the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice > articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and > rambling report got slammed? > > > > Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the > irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, > there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! > > I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual > BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as > much). > > > > > > I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an > attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know > the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if > somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, > songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just > cavers writing about caving. > > > > I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my > various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in > order to send something in. > > > > The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping. > > > > > > Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so > beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only > content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC > for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful > caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe that > would encourage more input. > > > > Wholeheartedly agree again, Mimi. If people don't care enough to send > material in, I don't care enough to be the Editor after this next issue of > the TC. > > > > Think about what I've said here. Our world is so electronic now. People have > Internet, cable tv, Facebook, etc. It is so easy to produce quality articles > with all the tools we have at our disposal now. But people are busy living in > our fast paced world, and will not take time to contribute to something if > made to feel inferior or unappreciated. They have better ways to use their > time for their own personal enjoyment and fulfillment. > > > > Wow, we agree again. It’s the dumbing down, ADD world that the digital age > has wrought. No one reads papers, reads books, or writes or reads anything of > heft and substance. > > > > "Idiocracy" is becoming the new norm (look it up in Wikipedia) and people > would rather post some nonsensical post about their need for coffee on > Facebook than create anything of substance. Please! > > > > > > If you bothered to finish this rambling mess, hopefully it will give you some > insight on how to reinvigorate the TC. One article I would love to see would > need to be done by Gil Ediger or someone else with long time knowledge of the > Texas Old Timers Reunion. (Sorry, I am an old timer and old fashioned. Not pc > at all.) I heard Gil talking to some newer cavers about the significance of > all the images in the cave drawing now on the back of the tshirts. Let's have > an article with a breakdown of the image - like an outline with numbers on > each part - and the story behind each image. Although an active Texas caver > since the 70s, I do not know who all the people are who are depicted, nor the > stories about them as to how or why they were chosen to be there. This > article alone could take up pages in an issue, and I think there are a lot of > cavers who don't know this information and would find it interesting. > > > > That is an excellent idea and I like it a LOT! > > > > Anyway, enough. After all the years I spent helping on the TC - from writing, > taking pics, typing, layout work, printing, assembling, mailing - I would > hate to see it go down. I still enjoy it! Attitudes must change to assure > survival. Of course I personally feel the caving world has gotten too lofty > and proud and political, but I am just a simple sport caver:) What do I know, > and who cares? > > > > You and James know a LOT and I appreciate your insight and observations, Mimi! > > > > > > Imagine putting the TC out every month like Jim used to do! We used to write > a LOT of trip reports and articles from our own trips, projects, etc, for the > same reason - used them when no submissions! > > > > I have done the same, Mimi, but doing it every month like y'all used to? Wow! > > > > I will say that in this age of electronic wizardry, I really don't see why > you don't have submissions. It's so easy to send stuff in. So, either > everyone is putting the reports in grotto newsletters and not sharing with > the TC, all active cavers have lost your TC info, or all caving these days is > "secret" and not for sharing. Surely couldn't be laziness or apathy! > > > > Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! > > > > UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and > they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the > Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did > a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston > Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, > but, it also is no more. > > > > At this rate, The TEXAS CAVER is headed for extinction and people can post > their pictures and fluff comments to FB. > > > > They all seem to like FB better. Heck, my kids have been on a bunch of trips > and even I can't get them to write on! > > > > > > With all the organized caving at preserves, projects, etc, with a report from > each of those trips you should have lots of material for each issue. Rather > see all that in the TC than on cavetex:) Pics included. > > > > Amen, sister! > > > > > > Amazing that you agreed with me on so much! I am an older caver, and have > always been a bit quiet due to not wanting to make waves:) Jim knows I can > get in trouble if I open up too much:) My opinions can be a bit harsh. > > > > Sound fine to me! > > > > First, you can't just post on cavetex and ask people to submit something:) > Has to be more personal. Jim used to write over 365 letters a year asking > for submissions and helping folks with ideas for articles. Of course, that > was with snail mail! How easy can e-mail be in comparison? > > > > I have appealed by email to folks that have either posted trip announcements, > been on a trip, or have conducted talks, etc. at Grotto meetings. I would say > my batting average is at 5% response. > > The last couple of months, it has been a big, fat zero response. > > > > > > Some people who complain the most about some things contribute little. (I did > not say that, though:)) > > > > Once again, Amen, sister! > > > > > > I really feel cavers are so into their own projects - secret and public - > that they simply do not want to publish info so as not to be bothered with > others wanting to join in. Just too busy, as stated before. I am older, kids > grown and gone, but still work full time and have family responsibilities > that leave not much me time. So I get it. But some efforts are worth the > rewards. > > > > Agreed and been there, done that. I still found time to write trip reports > when I was the DFWG’s Oztotl Caver editor. Once one sits down to write it, it > usually goes very fast. > > > > Also, I realize many of our caving movers and shakers are either older and > feel they have already given enough, or are younger and want some life > outside of caving, so again choose not to give it any more time than they do. > But again, three months to come up with something seems reasonable, right? > > > > I know what you say in reference to the armchair/chronologically challenged > cavers not being very active anymore. But, heck, I would be happy to receive > submission of past adventures in exploration for The Carbide Corner column, > but, to no avail there, either. Fritz Holt and Mark Minton have supplied me > pieces, as has Bill Steele, but, that’s about it! > > > > > > Gil is not the only one to approach about the OT graphic. Ask around in the > UTG, whoever makes the shirt, or put that part of my suggestion out there. > See if a group will come forward and do it! I could be labeled as stupid and > out of the loop for not knowing, but Waco is not a caving community! > > > > > > Neither is the Dallas area where I live, but, hopefully someone will step up > and write a piece and supply me the graphic. > > > > I just don't know if there is the interest in the TC anymore to keep it > alive, but time will tell. Jim tells me there is gobs of caving going on in > Texas, but unless your involved, you don't hear about it. > > > > You’re right, Mimi. There is a gob of caving going on, but no one wants to > write a report on it, or, the ones that have written reports in the past are > tired of doing all of the documenting and want/need someone else to do it. > > > > I know I fall in the latter category. > > > > > > Gas prices on our limited budget make us pick and choose where and when we go > places. > > > > Agreed. > > > > > > Hmmm - maybe people could write anonymous articles, as in no cave names, > county, or road locations. Just somewhere in Texas kind of thing. That could > preserve their project's anonymity, but still give folks some entertaining > moments of underground activity. No directionality even on maps! Even leave > off names of those on trips - like true fiction stuff! Worth a suggestion? > (Jim just said yuck to this, for no one likes to hear about the secret caving > of others - even fictionalized! But if you don't know if it's real, gets your > attention, right?) > > > > > > Excellent idea! > > > > > > Ok, enough. We do not want to be in charge of anything anymore, but don't > mind giving out ideas or suggestions. Because we live so far from most caving > and have limited travel resources, we have to sometimes miss things we used > to attend always. We do what we can, and lend support where feasible. > > > > > > I sincerely enjoy your thoughts and observations and, maybe, with the future > of The TEXAS CAVER being on the chopping block, this message would elicit a > response. > > > > If no response, the masses will have spoken. > > > > Either way, it will generate some interest and, by God, the TC needs it! > > > > I'll hope for interest and submissions. Just hard to understand why the > newer, younger generation of Texas cavers are not as passionate about sharing > their experiences as we older ones. Not all of us are on fb or have smart > phones, and I still think one of the best parts of a trip is the vocal - or > printed - rehashing of the experience. Oh, and the bath!:) > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Mimi and Mark > > > > > > > > > > > >
