I will add my two cents worth to this. I had the good fortune to discover Andy's Cave back in 1970. As a small cave in a difficult location to find, it did not receive much visitation to speak of. Within a couple of years of its discovery, it started to show the signs of wear and tear, much to my dismay. One of the extremely delicate rimstone dams in the back end of it was damaged by someone walking on it. I was not happy. Many years later, I returned again with Ransom on a trip and discovered that another dam was damaged. Several years after that, on my fourth or so trip in there, I found that about 10 of them were completely broken. The time since I was in there with Ransom to the time I returned as Trip Leader for that cave, all the entries had been made on TL guided trips. I am making the assumption that it was likely on one of those TL guided trips with competent cavers that the bulk of damage was done, most likely by one large footed inconsiderate SOB who either wasn't being led properly or did the damage while no one was looking. The area is now pretty well ruined as a result. I realize that it was done under the guidance of a trip leader for which there is seemingly no excuse for that happening, but I also shudder to think what would have happened if some unguided, unthinking, uncaring lug nut of a caver just decided to tromp through there. It is sad occurrences like this that have been responsible for the closing or tightening of permitting on various caves. In a sense, we have met the enemy and they are us…
I agree with Aaron that there are still plenty of cave permits available to be had. It does take a bit more planning than usual to get those permits for specific time slots, but then again, there are a hell of lot more cavers out there now than there were way back when. I remember several summers in the Guads in the late sixties/seventies when we spent weeks up there on top of the ridge and virtually NEVER saw anyone else up there. Nearly everyone was off in Vietnam or elsewhere at the time. Now there's a whole new group of people coming. In fact, John's recent posting about the discovery in Lech was amazing to me in that I didn't recognize 80% of the names of people who were on that trip. Most of them looked a lot younger than I am. I also don't go caving out there as much as I'd like to, given that there's a couple thousand miles between me and the Guads, but I also don't ever seem to have much trouble to find some caving opportunities out there of my own choice. Unfortunately, the scourge of WNS has brought that tragedy to the forefront of consciousness in the minds of Americans in general and thus they complain that cavers, who may be a vector for the spread of the disease in their minds, should be kept out to stop that spread. We do what we can to stop that train of thought, but for the uninitiated, it is hard to make an argument in our favor. And that's all I have to say about that… Peter On May 29, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote: > All > > I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But > I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this > because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. > And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys > from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more > excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a > Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the > NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. > What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the > Region but quickly "drop out", yet continue to come to me for permits, > directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have > probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck > now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a > great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these > people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to > regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever > aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry > knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit > isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour > attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. > > Aaron > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Peerman <gypca...@comcast.net> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 > To: <hrduch...@gmail.com> > Cc: <s...@caver.net> > Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering > > Harvey, Ken, > The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without > restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that humans > pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom comes > responsibility. > There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I don't > agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We have to > remember that we are part of the group "everyone". I do agree, however, that > one "well placed bureaucrat" can "muck up the works". > The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided > bureaucrats. > At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of > caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since > many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should > focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as > research. I think there is room for everyone. > > > > On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote: > > > > Ken and all, > > Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an "ist". If there is one place > where I disagree, it's that the problem isn't just the "ists." I alluded to > this in my talk. We used to be able to go caving just for the hell of it. No > permits, no paper work, no restrictions. Now we have to get permission to do > damn near everything. The National Cave Protection Act is being used by some > in your (and my) government to protect caves. Trouble is, the caves are being > "protected" from...us. With the NCPA, we have shot ourselves in the foot. > Maybe both feet. It's almost easier to go caving in some other country than > it is to do it in our own, thanks to the NCPA. Because of certain individuals > in bureaucratic positions, we are being shut out of the very caves we asked > them to help us protect. Does anyone else besides me see irony, here? > > I sympathize, Ken. Part of the reason I don't go caving much anymore is > because I'm old and decrepit. But part of it is because of the restrictive > rules and regulations imposed by certain people in our government agencies. > > There is a caveat, here. Some (perhaps many) of the folks working for the > agencies are very good people who are sympathetic to the view of cavers. But > it only takes one well placed bureaucrat to muck up the works. The NCPA has, > indeed, bitten us in the ass! > > Don't blame it all on the "ists." Some (perhaps most) of the blame needs to > placed where it belongs - on the "crats." > > Harvey DuChene > > > > From: swr-boun...@caver.net <mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net> > [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Ken Harrington > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:43 PM > To: SWR Cavers > Subject: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversery Gathering > > > What a wonderful gathering of the great cave explorers of New Mexico this > past weekend. These were the people who went where no one had gone before > and probed the darkness to see what no one had seen before. They > experimented with new designs for vertical gear to make things lighter and > better for reaching those deep recesses of the mountains. There will never be > another gathering like this. > But it also was also significant in that it marked the end of the era of > recreational caving. Never again will anyone be allowed to go "recreational > caving" in Fort Stanton because it would be a "fun" thing to do. Nothing has > brought this clearer to me than the BLM bunkhouse; where the walls are > covered with the accomplishments of the "ists" who have taken over Fort > Stanton Cave and caving in general. Mr. Fleming told me a while ago that "he > no longer goes caving as caving isn't fun any more". At the time I didn't > understand him, but now I do. If all caving is being done to further > research of the "ists", then caving is a dying activity. Young people are > not going to join us and go caving just to collect soil samples or watch a > chosen few get to do all the exploration of new places. Preservation of the > caves is a waste of time if there is not going to be any one in the future to > appreciate the caves for what there are, and the natural grandness of them. > The 50th was a wonderful event and congratulations to all who made it a > success. I had a great time but left with a heavy heart as I realized that > caving as I knew it is a dead art form. > > Ken > > Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the > rain. <http://gfx2.hotmail.com/mail/w4/pr01/ltr/emoticons/smile_regular.gif> > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 7176 (20120528) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 7176 (20120528) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > SWR mailing list > s...@caver.net <mailto:s...@caver.net> > http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net > > > > > > Steve Peerman > > > "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you > didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from > the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. > Discover." > attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this. > > _______________________________________________ > SWR mailing list > s...@caver.net > http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
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