All,
I, too, have been following the beads of conversation here. What I got
out of this last Saturday's gathering, besides all of the fellowship and
caring (several really seemed to express their care about my safety on the
drive Saturday night back to Socorro - thanks), was the terrific energy
that past and present cave explorers have put into their seeking of
underground adventure. Caving adventure is NOT all lost. It is just harder
to find. Why, just today, I visited a fissure cave in the Jemez near San
Antonio hot springs that I didn't know was there. It wasn't big, but it was
new to me and the geology of the tufa rock was amazing and needs to be
explored by someone certainly more knowledgeable of this formation than I
am. The fissure cave was in a huge wave of tufa bent and folded. On one
face, it looked like tufa flowstone. The cave wasn't long or deep, but it
was a cave touching briefly into darkness, then ending abruptly. And, it
was a beautiful wildflower hike through the woods to get to it. I think
caving today will just take more energy from those who seek the underground
exploration adventure that the now-old-farts accomplished in the past.
Yes, much recreational caving may be out the window, but I thought
most of us were enticed into caving by the efforts we put into digging,
pushing new passages, and climbing up and down those daunting ridges to
check rumors of a cave somewhere up or down those slopes. And I remember
that we were avidly desirous of protecting what we found, if only so that
it might be there for later peoples who follow our tracks. I have led very
few recreational caving trips in the last 20 years and have encouraged new
as well as curious past cavers to go out there and find the caves. And they
did, or they found leaders like John who can open their eyes and improve
their skills to experience what we all want to protect - above, below,
inside, and on the earth. We have gotten away from protecting the earth.
It's not just about us; it's about the Earth, isn't it.
Further, I hope these threads of excellent conversation will get published
in the *Southwestern Cavers* for all to ponder over.
Linda Starr
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Penny Boston <pbos...@nmt.edu> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I have followed the comments this morning with interest. Indeed, it was
> great fun to participate in the celebration over the weekend and my
> compliments to the organizers who have obviously put in so much time and
> care in the preparations. The hard work definitely showed in the result!
> And excellent to hear of the history of caves in the area as experienced
> by the members who have participated for decades.
>
> As a science person, I want to point out that it is not the science which
> is somehow "getting in the way" of recreational caving. I would hope, in
> fact, that additional information about the geology, hydrology, and biology
> of a cave system would make it even more interesting for those who wish to
> cave for fun.
>
> It is true that there are caves so special, or fragile, or uniquely worthy
> of protection in some way that they are not available for recreation, but
> can sometimes be made available for scientific research. I think this is
> not something that science has to apologize for.
>
> Having just returned from a meeting and cave and mine work in Sardinia, I
> have a new appreciation for what protection of caves can do. Being there
> and seeing what has been done to caves that have been intersected by mining
> activities over the course of history has given a new meaning to the term
> "plundered" in my mind. Apparently, only being called after a saint (Santa
> Barbara, the patron saint of mining) has saved one cave from plunder, but
> the amazing damage to the other caves makes me appreciate all over again
> the role of federal, state, and private cave owner protection of the
> underground wilderness. Are permits and arrangements a pain in the ass?
> You bet! Are caves worth the hassle? You bet! Are the kids in our NMT
> Grotto anxious and willing to cave both for recreation and science? You
> bet! I wouldn't worry about the next generation. I think they will be
> fine cavers and good stewards of the underground.
>
> Penny
>
>
> On May 29, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote:
>
> > All
> >
> > I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on.
> But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know
> this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily
> basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young
> guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's
> and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a
> Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going
> to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever
> joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the
> grottos and the Region but quickly "drop out", yet continue to come to me
> for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much,
> I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how
> things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously
> attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members.
> Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits,
> bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they
> grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never
> experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes.
> My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly
> interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will
> keep them out of our organizations.
> >
> > Aaron
> > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Peerman <gypca...@comcast.net>
> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10
> > To: <hrduch...@gmail.com>
> > Cc: <s...@caver.net>
> > Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
> >
> > Harvey, Ken,
> > The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves
> without restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that
> humans pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom
> comes responsibility.
> > There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I
> don't agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We
> have to remember that we are part of the group "everyone". I do agree,
> however, that one "well placed bureaucrat" can "muck up the works".
> > The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided
> bureaucrats.
> > At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of
> caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since
> many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should
> focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as
> research. I think there is room for everyone.
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Ken and all,
> >
> > Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an "ist". If there is one
> place where I disagree, it's that the problem isn't just the "ists." I
> alluded to this in my talk. We used to be able to go caving just for the
> hell of it. No permits, no paper work, no restrictions. Now we have to get
> permission to do damn near everything. The National Cave Protection Act is
> being used by some in your (and my) government to protect caves. Trouble
> is, the caves are being "protected" from...us. With the NCPA, we have
> shot ourselves in the foot. Maybe both feet. It's almost easier to go
> caving in some other country than it is to do it in our own, thanks to the
> NCPA. Because of certain individuals in bureaucratic positions, we are
> being shut out of the very caves we asked them to help us protect. Does
> anyone else besides me see irony, here?
> >
> > I sympathize, Ken. Part of the reason I don't go caving much anymore is
> because I'm old and decrepit. But part of it is because of the restrictive
> rules and regulations imposed by certain people in our government agencies.
> >
> > There is a caveat, here. Some (perhaps many) of the folks working for
> the agencies are very good people who are sympathetic to the view of
> cavers. But it only takes one well placed bureaucrat to muck up the works.
> The NCPA has, indeed, bitten us in the ass!
> >
> > Don't blame it all on the "ists." Some (perhaps most) of the blame needs
> to placed where it belongs - on the "crats."
> >
> > Harvey DuChene
> >
> >
> >
> > From: swr-boun...@caver.net <mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net> [mailto:
> swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Ken Harrington
> > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:43 PM
> > To: SWR Cavers
> > Subject: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversery Gathering
> >
> >
> > What a wonderful gathering of the great cave explorers of New Mexico
> this past weekend. These were the people who went where no one had gone
> before and probed the darkness to see what no one had seen before. They
> experimented with new designs for vertical gear to make things lighter and
> better for reaching those deep recesses of the mountains. There will never
> be another gathering like this.
> > But it also was also significant in that it marked the end of the era of
> recreational caving. Never again will anyone be allowed to go
> "recreational caving" in Fort Stanton because it would be a "fun" thing to
> do. Nothing has brought this clearer to me than the BLM bunkhouse; where
> the walls are covered with the accomplishments of the "ists" who have taken
> over Fort Stanton Cave and caving in general. Mr. Fleming told me a while
> ago that "he no longer goes caving as caving isn't fun any more". At the
> time I didn't understand him, but now I do. If all caving is being done to
> further research of the "ists", then caving is a dying activity. Young
> people are not going to join us and go caving just to collect soil samples
> or watch a chosen few get to do all the exploration of new places.
> Preservation of the caves is a waste of time if there is not going to be
> any one in the future to appreciate the caves for what there are, and the
> natural grandness of them.
> > The 50th was a wonderful event and congratulations to all who made it a
> success. I had a great time but left with a heavy heart as I realized that
> caving as I knew it is a dead art form.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in
> the rain. <
> http://gfx2.hotmail.com/mail/w4/pr01/ltr/emoticons/smile_regular.gif>
> >
> >
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> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Peerman
> >
> >
> > "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
> you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail
> away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
> Dream. Discover."
> > attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written
> this.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
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