Though I admit that especially after working intimately with radioactive
contamination (which is also invisible to the eye), I sometimes have a problem
with suspending my disbelief with the WNS decontamination protocol, I do think
that cavers are aware of how to clean ourselves. We are aware bats are THE
vector for spreading WNS. But even if it is a one in a million chance that
cavers (with no bat to human contact) could spread it, as cave
conservationists, we need to not be that one in a million chance.
Let's keep working towards a solution and not just fighting against people.
Jen
From: pagan...@comcast.net
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:02:00 -0600
To: s...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote:It is what I have been saying.
There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work,
including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the
experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to
support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it.
It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say
that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the
spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time
you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is
futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet
and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave?
Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you
were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the
same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put
your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of
carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your
expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated
their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same
dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails?
Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those
fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it,
then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched
decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e.
spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound
completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea
of decontaminating your gear is equally just a "feel good" measure. Pick up any
medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of
field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals
need a "cause". Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with
complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close
all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them?
Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or
that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is
as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other
hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results.
Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like.
All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl…….
On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote:
Total waste of time.
CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by
the fact that they can reap millions in litigation.
This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more.
Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the
misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that
humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any
scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated
as fact.
Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself,
nothing is going to change.
Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to
emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are
of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers
are not even a blip on the money screen.
Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is
important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior
petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much
all turn out. This is pissing in the wind.
On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
Subject: Petition
to keep public caves open to the public
As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House
to close all
public caves and fine private landowners who keep their
caves open.
This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often
vandalized when
responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to
protect the
bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread
can
be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human
vector ever
existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a
threat to
conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad
science,
and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you
support this
cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves
open.
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
Sincerely,
John Dunham
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