I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new.
Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their demands
for complete closure to everyone?
Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another
conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we
thought we were).
Karl
________________________________
From: Stephen Fleming <casto...@gmail.com>
To: Peter Jones <pjca...@gwi.net>
Cc: Mike Bilbo <mbbi...@yahoo.com>; Kathy Peerman <speleob...@comcast.net>;
Karl Wilson <wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com>; Mike Lorimer <mi...@fastwave.biz>;
Hank Boudinot <grnpacav...@gmail.com>; Mike Dimatteo
<mike_dimat...@comcast.net>; Bob Rodgers <motoca...@gmail.com>; Stephanie Regan
<regan...@nmsu.edu>; Justin Peinado <tu...@sbcglobal.net>; David Winnett
<david.winn...@yahoo.com>; Evelyn Townsend <karstpat...@gmail.com>; Wayne
Walker <wcwal...@zianet.com>; Robert Wood <robw...@wwdb.org>; Jackie Horton
<rambe...@zianet.com>; Jeff Bach <jbac...@comcast.net>; Dave Gose
<oldgru...@msn.com>; John Collins <elpasoca...@yahoo.com>; Luke Peerman
<lpeer...@lcsun-news.com>; Scott Anderson <scottanderso...@yahoo.com>; Ashley
Smith <sarcave...@gmail.com>; Mike Bilbo <mike_bi...@blm.gov>; Kenny Stabinsky
<nmba...@zianet.com>; Lee Wilson <lee.t.wil...@gmail.com>; Kate Bach
<katert...@comcast.net>; Robert Foster <rfos...@nmsu.edu>; Margaret Wilson
<margaretwilso...@gmail.com>; Lee Stevens <sldstev...@msn.com>; Allen Wright
<siz...@hotmail.com>; Grady Viramontes <gra...@comcast.net>; Cordie Ross
<cor...@alum.dartmouth.org>; Gary Grogg <gggr...@hotmail.com>; Don Martin
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SWR <s...@caver.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies
needed
On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote:
> It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the
> only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other
> cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the
> issue directly to congress people.
Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than
signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply,
but usually nothing more accomplished.
> Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came
> in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I
> was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my
> grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of
> trying to express my views about saving Lech!!
Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or
recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements,
that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point.
While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most
cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be
satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a
time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a
staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that
has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come
from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public
pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of
getting the official interested are that much greater.
I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3
elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque
and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was
in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving,
and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending
original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot
more effort than clicking on a petition.
And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking
does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever
assume you won't make progress.
Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue
(because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get
somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of
demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the
conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented;
and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science
or good judgment.
What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman
(or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon
which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures.
What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot
deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access
and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming
the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the
CBD determines "there is some evidence" (as they do with the WNS human vector
theory) we may get hit by a meteor and demands equally arcane and insupportable
actions?
Heck, cavers can demand this themselves directly from the agencies. Just be
prepared for a total brush off as they are more afraid of the CBD than they
ever will be of you, and will be loathe to admit they have taken an action to
exclude public use of public land on the basis of "no basis". However, it is a
good place to start. You have far more influence than likely any of you are
aware. Why do you think some issues get attention and others don't? Those that
do almost always are driven by local folks getting and staying fired up. Get
your data request (those would be FOIA requests folks) rejections in hand and
then go see your elected officials or their staffs.
> I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything
> we wished for.
You never will. But, you can get a lot.
> If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to
> respond to them in kind.
I know what you are saying, but it also needs saying the CBD is not interested
in attacking us (not even the NSS). There's no money in it. Directly contacting
the CBD with impassioned pleas, logic or anything else is a waste of time. They
do not care what any of us think, nor do they have to. The agencies are a
different matter entirely. While they need to be responding to legitimate
public interests and questions, they are totally cowed (definition: cause
(someone) to submit to one's wishes by intimidation) by the CBD. So, the
agencies are going to please the CBD, not the public. It's that lack of a spine
and lack of leadership thing and will be so until they fear the public more
than the CBD....which is where a bit of political intrigue is helpful.
> Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our
>own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack.
Yep.
> We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing
>all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but
>be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by
>anybody.
Saying there is no evidence, but continuing to perform decon processes foisted
upon you by idiots and of no demonstrable efficacy (oh, it works because there
is no WNS to deal with...thus remarkable, yea 100%, success), indicates
acceptance of the folly and sends a signal you accept the notable lack of even
the tinest shred of evidence of a human vector. You either don't believe the
hype or you do. In the total absence of scientific evidence of either a vector
or decon efficacy, there is no reason to play the game. Just refuse to do it.
What are they going to do? Shut you out of the caves? Seems that already has
happened. Stop being the victim.
> Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on
> Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled
> visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without
> a fight.
You've already lost. You have to remember the CBD doesn't care about you, or
the caves. They only care, purportedly (though settlement awards say otherwise)
about the biology.
But, your statement implies a most curious argument. "We have to be allowed in
the caves in order to save them". Really? That's just as specious as a human
vector. On the other hand, how does allowing "controlled visits" mean the lack
of visits is anything other than total control? The fact that you may be given
a permit has no bearing on someone not inclined to obtain one as to whether
they go in or not. Then there is that contingent of cavers that would be
ecstatic if no one went into caves (except themselves, of course). The real
issue is that we need access to caves (at least on public land) because it is a
public resource and the public implicitly has a right of access.
> If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking
>out all the firemen to put it out!!
That pretty well describes the NPS model of cave management vis-à-vis letting
the public go caving.
>
> There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our
> senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike,
> it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment.
Well, you know what to do....everybody get busy. Start by flooding BLM with
numerous FOIAs. Concentrate the effort on a single agency. When they reply, but
not with what you asked for, dun them again. The others will fold as it becomes
apparent their ruse no longer works (but settle in for a long wait).
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