Ray, Right now there are only nine caves open for recreational permits. We are working with the FS on a list of 43 caves to see which ones will be opened for recreational caving. So we are making progress, but, as when working with any government agency, things move slowly. Part of the delay is the schedules of the cavers involved in the meetings. Our next meeting will be on the 27th of this month and after that we should have a list of a significant number of the caves on the list that are available for recreational caving. What everyone has to remember is that we (cavers) are a very diverse group with many different and conflicting desires. Within the SWR we have cavers that want everything open with no permits required on one hand and then we have those who believe that the access to the caves should be restricted to restoration trips only with almost no, or very limited recreational caving allowed. Right now members of the later group spend a lot of time lobbying the folks in the Forest Service and are being listened to. Bottom line is that while we may get several more caves opened for recreational caving, if we really want to be able to visit all of the caves in the LNF, then we will have to bring something to the table besides yelling that "they are public lands and we should have access". If we can convince the FS that they are getting something in return for the access that we want, then we will get access to many of the caves that will never be open for recreational caving. I probably should not have used the word "requirement" in my prior missive as those are really not requirements at this time but they are the topics that I have discussed with the FS as to what should be done in the caves on a monitoring trip. It seems that whenever I attempt to communicate with the caving community I have the unusual ability to use words or phrases that can be interperted two or three different ways - and are. After December that should no longer be a problem as I will no longer be the Chairman of the SWR and I can get back to just crawling around in holes in the ground - but then there will always be someone that thinks I do that wrong too. Ken
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. From: rckee...@cox.net To: ken_harring...@hotmail.com; nmca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [NMCAVER] SWR & Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:24:48 -0700 What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine? Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid labor ... again. Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the "closures"? Not blanket, cave-by-cave. If the SWR is regarded as the "experts" where is the consensus from SWR leaders with these additional 29 "closures". What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures? thanks, Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Harrington To: NM Cavers Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR & Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Hi folks, This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR) First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those present what I was attempting to do. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains. That is what has occurred to date or is ongoing. Now moving forward: I and the folks at LNF are now in the final stages of drafting a working agreement between the two organizations. The following is an overview of what the SWR will be expected to do under this agreement. The LNF now considers us as the “Cave Experts” as they do not have anyone on staff that is knowledgeable of the caves within the LNF. The LNF has a requirement on the book to monitor all the caves within their area of responsibility – well over 100 caves. Under the agreement we will be required to perform monitoring trips to as many of the caves as possible. Monitoring trips will be performed by teams of four to six individuals. Activities to be performed on these trips include: a) Mapping and surveying of caves which have not previously been mapped. b) Photo documentation of the condition of the caves, unique formations, any noted vandalism and any life forms observed. c) Recommendations of caves that need restoration work. d) Possible temperature readings if digital thermometers are available. e) Presence and estimated number of bats f) Each trip will require a detailed trip report specifying what was observed, potentially dangerous situations or spots (loose rocks, slippery footing, extremely difficult vertical work required, etc.), life forms observed, archeological sightings, condition of formations, etc. While the initial trips will be to those caves which are on the list of 43 curently being considered for recreational permits, eventually the monitoring trips will be extended to caves which are not available for recreational caving permits. This is an excellent opportunity for us to visit these caves and assist the LNF in developing their data base of information on the caves which they are charged with administering. As a part of the agreement I am required to provide a listing of the names of individuals from the SWR who could be expected to be involved in the monitoring trips. I am also required to provide a tentative schedule of when we could make some of the monitoring trips. The schedule is fairly easy for me but I now need to know how much support is really out there to perform these trips. If there is not sufficient interest then both the management team at LNF and myself are just spinning our wheels and wasting a lot of precious time. So I now need to know who would be willing to be involved in participating in these trips. Please e-mail at ken_harring...@hotmail.com if you would like to be involved. Hopefully, my inbox will be full of positive responses. Thanks! Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. _______________________________________________ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
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