Thanks Ken for the solid reply.
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Harrington
To: rckee...@cox.net ; NM Cavers
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: [NMCAVER] SWR & Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Ray,
Right now there are only nine caves open for recreational permits. We are
working with the FS on a list of 43 caves to see which ones will be opened for
recreational caving. So we are making progress, but, as when working with any
government agency, things move slowly. Part of the delay is the schedules of
the cavers involved in the meetings. Our next meeting will be on the 27th of
this month and after that we should have a list of a significant number of the
caves on the list that are available for recreational caving.
What everyone has to remember is that we (cavers) are a very diverse group
with many different and conflicting desires. Within the SWR we have cavers
that want everything open with no permits required on one hand and then we have
those who believe that the access to the caves should be restricted to
restoration trips only with almost no, or very limited recreational caving
allowed. Right now members of the later group spend a lot of time lobbying the
folks in the Forest Service and are being listened to.
Bottom line is that while we may get several more caves opened for
recreational caving, if we really want to be able to visit all of the caves in
the LNF, then we will have to bring something to the table besides yelling that
"they are public lands and we should have access". If we can convince the FS
that they are getting something in return for the access that we want, then we
will get access to many of the caves that will never be open for recreational
caving.
I probably should not have used the word "requirement" in my prior missive as
those are really not requirements at this time but they are the topics that I
have discussed with the FS as to what should be done in the caves on a
monitoring trip.
It seems that whenever I attempt to communicate with the caving community I
have the unusual ability to use words or phrases that can be interperted two or
three different ways - and are. After December that should no longer be a
problem as I will no longer be the Chairman of the SWR and I can get back to
just crawling around in holes in the ground - but then there will always be
someone that thinks I do that wrong too.
Ken
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the
rain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rckee...@cox.net
To: ken_harring...@hotmail.com; nmca...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [NMCAVER] SWR & Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:24:48 -0700
What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine?
Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid
labor ... again.
Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the "closures"? Not blanket,
cave-by-cave.
If the SWR is regarded as the "experts" where is the consensus from SWR
leaders with these additional 29 "closures".
What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures?
thanks,
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Harrington
To: NM Cavers
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM
Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR & Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Hi folks,
This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR)
First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe
District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District
to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally
got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers,
the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving.
Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and
others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR
and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those
present what I was attempting to do.
During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived
at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits.
There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the
list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational
permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip
leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest
Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was
considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We
also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains.
That is what has occurred to date or is ongoing. Now moving forward:
I and the folks at LNF are now in the final stages of drafting a working
agreement between the two organizations. The following is an overview of what
the SWR will be expected to do under this agreement.
The LNF now considers us as the “Cave Experts” as they do not have anyone
on staff that is knowledgeable of the caves within the LNF. The LNF has a
requirement on the book to monitor all the caves within their area of
responsibility – well over 100 caves.
Under the agreement we will be required to perform monitoring trips to as
many of the caves as possible. Monitoring trips will be performed by teams of
four to six individuals. Activities to be performed on these trips include:
a) Mapping and surveying of caves which have not previously been mapped.
b) Photo documentation of the condition of the caves, unique formations,
any noted vandalism and any life forms observed.
c) Recommendations of caves that need restoration work.
d) Possible temperature readings if digital thermometers are available.
e) Presence and estimated number of bats
f) Each trip will require a detailed trip report specifying what was
observed, potentially dangerous situations or spots (loose rocks, slippery
footing, extremely difficult vertical work required, etc.), life forms
observed, archeological sightings, condition of formations, etc.
While the initial trips will be to those caves which are on the list of 43
curently being considered for recreational permits, eventually the monitoring
trips will be extended to caves which are not available for recreational caving
permits.
This is an excellent opportunity for us to visit these caves and assist the
LNF in developing their data base of information on the caves which they are
charged with administering.
As a part of the agreement I am required to provide a listing of the names
of individuals from the SWR who could be expected to be involved in the
monitoring trips. I am also required to provide a tentative schedule of when
we could make some of the monitoring trips. The schedule is fairly easy for me
but I now need to know how much support is really out there to perform these
trips. If there is not sufficient interest then both the management team at
LNF and myself are just spinning our wheels and wasting a lot of precious time.
So I now need to know who would be willing to be involved in participating
in these trips. Please e-mail at ken_harring...@hotmail.com if you would like
to be involved. Hopefully, my inbox will be full of positive responses.
Thanks!
Ken
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the
rain.
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