From: Massimiliano Gubinelli <m.gubine...@gmail.com> To: TeXmacs developer mailing list <texmacs-dev@gnu.org> Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Free Software needs Free Documentation Date: 21/06/2021 11:30:28 Europe/Paris
Dear Martin, On 20. Jun 2021, at 22:00, martin-k...@brusseler.com wrote: Massimiliano, I have not read the book and cannot confidently make the assessment you describe. >I never referred to the content of the book. I pointed out that there is >plenty of free documentation >for TeXmacs available. I think you can read it >and very by yourself that it is quite comprehensive >and informative. Indeed >until the book was written (i.e. last year) it was the only information >>available. I do not know what the main author of TeXmacs has written in that book. I just outlined what is considered standard at university level. >I'm not sure what university has to do with that. Joris has written his book >in his private capacity >as he already stressed. I compared the value of mathematic background to a book about typesetting a docement. The value is not the same. The book is about how to use a particular implementation of software. >The book is on how to write good documents with TeXmacs, does not discuss only >the specific >use of the software (which is already covered by the free user >manual and the various tutorials) but >how to use it effectively and what are >the best practice of document writing. Again Joris do not >have to be slave of >his decision to make TeXmacs available as a GNU project in other parts of his >>daily life. Works that express someone's opinion - memoirs, editorials, and so on - serve a fundamentally different purpose than works for practical use like software and documentation. If it is about writing, I would take a different view. Slavery has nothing to do with this, and I am not going behind people's back to immobilise them. >TeXmacs has already a good free manual. I bought the book also to give my >appreciation to Joris >for all his hard work. Became aware of TeXmacs around 2013 after a talk by François Poulain. Have reviewed TeXmacs a number of times since then - but I could not really recommend it. But do hope to change my mind about it, because I can see some benefits in using it if specific criticisms are tackled. >I would be interested in reading your reviews. Are they available somewhere? >Where can we learn about these criticisms? The criticisms were technical mostly, some files were getting deleted after calling save. The distribution of a book relates to its value for readers. An author must accept that a limited circulation book will not earn much money. >This is not your choice to make. Many book have very small circulation but >they are produced for >the love of quality and beauty. Is really the price >your only issue? I showed you that popular >LaTeX books are similarly priced. >You didn't commented about it. Don't own such books. Only pointed out that a more reasonable priced book could help circulation, rather than depending on the community close to Joris who want to support him. The biggest problem however is the restrictive legal conditions of using book, and that the information is only provided in french when the people reading it are english speakers Few authors do. Inflating its price as we have seen with Elsevier and others is a disease that requires eradication. Thusly I refuse to involve myself in peer-review.for the benefit of publishers who mistreat readers with vastly inflated prices, while at the same time campaigning for exclusive legal rights of exploitation to be granted to them by governments. >Martin, the economy of scientific publications is not a matter involving this >mailing list, or about >your specific complain about the lack of free >documentation for TeXmacs (which I showed you >that it is unmotivated). I thank you for your discussion about the book. Be reminded that my discussion with Joris (and which I am glad he responded directly) went far beyond the development contribution, elaborating on topics that are at director and institutional levels. And we have found much agreement and recognition of the challenges at hand. >If you write on texmacs-dev then other developers/users of TeXmacs are >entitled to answer. If you >want to address Joris personally use his own mail >address. I feel compelled as a supporter of this >project to say my word to >support Joris' hard work and commitment to free software. It is a good discussion to have in the community. Disputes simply compelled by the bunch people gathered around them is not intelligence. It forms part of my critique. But introspections oy value are welcomed. The challenge has no similarities to what has been seen recently in the software community (vis Richard Stallman, Eric Raymond, Linus Torvalds). Do not interpret it that way. Neither should I be associated with Open Source Projects, as it is something I don't agree with. >I'm sorry but I do not know what you are talking about, I'm quite ignorant in >these matters and do >not understand your point here. Please see https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/The-Decline-and-Fall-of-Eric-S.-Raymond https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-removal-of-richard-stallman-and-entire-fsf-board/ As Directeur de Recherche, Joris is quite capable of responding forcefully at unjust criticism as befitting to his position. >I do not see how the daily work of Joris matters here. It should not. He could >be a baker or a >painter. If you think our work should affect our >activity/position in this discussion, I would invite >you to disclose >analogous informations about you. I'm a university professor myself, for what >it >matters. But I would have liked to be a restaurant waiter, too. I treat others according to how they present themselves. He does not present himself as a baker. What I can do is encourage and inspire the world to change some attitudes, in ways that will make the institutions we work with, the best they can be. Together with others, we can work so that true human capabilities can find expression. >Joris' contribution to the world of free software is clear and well documented >by more than 70% of >~300.000 lines of code and free documentation and the >leadership of this project. In comparison >each of us other developers of >TeXmacs have made minor contributions. I would encourage you to help him and support him with contributions. >It would be helpful to know, to understand better your point, what are you >proposing concretely. >In particular also what are your contributions to the >goal of >"we can work so that true human capabilities can find expression." Mostly legal. I was involved in the bunch of heavyweights discussing with governments and members of the european parliament the harms of passing the EU Directive on Copyright in the Digital Single Market. >Best regards, >Massimiliano Gubinelli
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