@Tobias:
I think your ideas are great :) ... Any chance of you putting together an
"old style TWC" theme for TW5 to help people migrate forward perhaps?
It could help significantly with people having issues!
Regards
David
On Saturday, 14 September 2013 11:33:01 UTC+1, Tobias Beer wrote:
>
> Hi David & Branimir,
>
> 1. I suspect the choice of 100% wide tables is part of the css, it can be
>> over come with returning the tables to default HTML behaviour
>
>
>
> @@width: auto;
>> "insert table here"
>> @@
>>
>
> ...which should be the default along with max-width:100%; — tables must
> not stretch beyond tiddlers.
>
>
> 2. I agree, I suspect we will see more documentation as TW5 moves from
>> alpha into beta and then finally into release. However I believe the stated
>> aim is not to reproduce TWC behaviour in all respects, as the output from
>> TWC at an HTML level does not produce well structured HTML. In addition as
>> CSS is "user driven" rather than developer driven, making things "look" the
>> way you want them is your choice :)
>>
>
> I also vote for this approach, however this begs for a space that gives
> clear instructions and examples for "How do I do this?"
>
> In the case of captions, the answer is to use:
>
> table caption{
> caption-side: bottom;
> }
>
> I don't think *at all* that the answer is "use inline styles", e.g.
>
> @@caption-side:bottom;
> |the|table|
> @@
>
> In general, I think captions below an element are the meaningful default,
> especially when your wiki syntax already puts it last.
>
>
> 3. Once again CSS is your friend ... you can make the footer look how you
>> wish.
>>
>
> Dito. If people are not supposed to go crazy over having to style
> everything themselves there need to be style-bundles of sorts which come
> with balanced defaults rather than a blank canvas. I think, the theme is
> only place to contain such a style-bundle.
>
>
> 4. Yes, I suspect it is a bug, the one or two lines triggers block mode.
>> However it should not "consume" all the lines. As you commented a <br> will
>> fix it for the moment.
>>
>
> Not sure how this applies to tables, to me it's pretty obvious that table
> syntax always renders block mode. In which occasion are they not supposed
> to?
>
>
> 5. In your own words .. Wrong ... use this to place the caption where you
>> wish: -
>>
>> @@caption-side:bottom;
>> "insert table here"
>> @@
>>
>
> I find it tremendously helpful that you share your knowledge about how to
> achieve the desired end, but I think this thread is mostly about
> defaults... and not defining a custom StyleSheet or even having to use
> inline styles all over the place.
>
> I believe proper CSS is a major issue for any HTML based environment. TW2
> didn't really do a good job at it and I believe there should be about 10x
> as much focus on that in TW5. I find that very important.
>
>
> According to the w3c the placement of a caption is by default as a title.
>> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Elements/caption ... but it can be placed
>> anywhere using css.
>>
>
> Again, I would expect a caption to only ever be first if I explicitly put
> it there in my wiki syntax. In all other cases I would expect it last.
>
>
> 6. I merely supplied an example of how to resolve the issue .. once again
>> the rendering needs to be forced into block mode which requires one or two
>> lines added after, this behaviour is different from TWC.
>>
>
> There's a bit too much fiddling right now. The problem with being required
> to use explicit newlines is not just for appending one after the last
> row, but also for prepending one to the first. In other word, a tiddler in
> tw5 may not start with a table right now. These are clearly bugs.
>
>
> I spent some time this morning coming up with some CSS which will make
>> tables "look" like the TWC version as a gift for you I hope it helps :)
>>
>
>
>> Firstly create a new tiddler and tag it with $:/tags/stylesheet which
>> will force it to be used as a stylesheet then add the following.
>>
>
>> @@.oldstyle
>> (put your table here)
>> @@
>>
>
> I am sorry, but this should not be "oldstyle" — it should be tw5
> default-theme-style. What should be there is the option for a theme that
> looks good and the option for a minimal theme that does not come with any
> css but rather leaves that for the designer.
>
> As for me, *all* styles should always be bundled in themes, even browser
> resets! No CSS should ship with the core, except when contained in the
> theme. Otherwise you are forcing a designer to adapt your pattern.
>
> Best wishes, Tobias.
>
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