Thanks for the useful discussion. I've just pushed some changes to
five.tiddlywiki.com:
* Documentation for TableWikiText
* Stylesheet changes to make headers and footers visible
* Changed table width from 100% to auto, with a max-width of 100%
Best wishes
Jeremy
On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 12:08 PM, David Johnston <d.w.johns...@gmail.com>wrote:
> @Tobias:
>
> I think your ideas are great :) ... Any chance of you putting together an
> "old style TWC" theme for TW5 to help people migrate forward perhaps?
>
> It could help significantly with people having issues!
>
> Regards
>
> David
>
>
> On Saturday, 14 September 2013 11:33:01 UTC+1, Tobias Beer wrote:
>>
>> Hi David & Branimir,
>>
>> 1. I suspect the choice of 100% wide tables is part of the css, it can be
>>> over come with returning the tables to default HTML behaviour
>>
>>
>>
>> @@width: auto;
>>> "insert table here"
>>> @@
>>>
>>
>> ...which should be the default along with max-width:100%; — tables must
>> not stretch beyond tiddlers.
>>
>>
>> 2. I agree, I suspect we will see more documentation as TW5 moves from
>>> alpha into beta and then finally into release. However I believe the stated
>>> aim is not to reproduce TWC behaviour in all respects, as the output from
>>> TWC at an HTML level does not produce well structured HTML. In addition as
>>> CSS is "user driven" rather than developer driven, making things "look" the
>>> way you want them is your choice :)
>>>
>>
>> I also vote for this approach, however this begs for a space that gives
>> clear instructions and examples for "How do I do this?"
>>
>> In the case of captions, the answer is to use:
>>
>> table caption{
>> caption-side: bottom;
>> }
>>
>> I don't think *at all* that the answer is "use inline styles", e.g.
>>
>> @@caption-side:bottom;
>> |the|table|
>> @@
>>
>> In general, I think captions below an element are the meaningful default,
>> especially when your wiki syntax already puts it last.
>>
>>
>> 3. Once again CSS is your friend ... you can make the footer look how you
>>> wish.
>>>
>>
>> Dito. If people are not supposed to go crazy over having to style
>> everything themselves there need to be style-bundles of sorts which come
>> with balanced defaults rather than a blank canvas. I think, the theme is
>> only place to contain such a style-bundle.
>>
>>
>> 4. Yes, I suspect it is a bug, the one or two lines triggers block mode.
>>> However it should not "consume" all the lines. As you commented a <br> will
>>> fix it for the moment.
>>>
>>
>> Not sure how this applies to tables, to me it's pretty obvious that table
>> syntax always renders block mode. In which occasion are they not supposed
>> to?
>>
>>
>> 5. In your own words .. Wrong ... use this to place the caption where you
>>> wish: -
>>>
>>> @@caption-side:bottom;
>>> "insert table here"
>>> @@
>>>
>>
>> I find it tremendously helpful that you share your knowledge about how to
>> achieve the desired end, but I think this thread is mostly about
>> defaults... and not defining a custom StyleSheet or even having to use
>> inline styles all over the place.
>>
>> I believe proper CSS is a major issue for any HTML based environment. TW2
>> didn't really do a good job at it and I believe there should be about 10x
>> as much focus on that in TW5. I find that very important.
>>
>>
>> According to the w3c the placement of a caption is by default as a title.
>>> http://www.w3.org/wiki/**HTML/Elements/caption<http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Elements/caption>
>>> ...
>>> but it can be placed anywhere using css.
>>>
>>
>> Again, I would expect a caption to only ever be first if I explicitly put
>> it there in my wiki syntax. In all other cases I would expect it last.
>>
>>
>> 6. I merely supplied an example of how to resolve the issue .. once again
>>> the rendering needs to be forced into block mode which requires one or two
>>> lines added after, this behaviour is different from TWC.
>>>
>>
>> There's a bit too much fiddling right now. The problem with being
>> required to use explicit newlines is not just for appending one after the
>> last row, but also for prepending one to the first. In other word, a
>> tiddler in tw5 may not start with a table right now. These are clearly bugs.
>>
>>
>> I spent some time this morning coming up with some CSS which will make
>>> tables "look" like the TWC version as a gift for you I hope it helps :)
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Firstly create a new tiddler and tag it with $:/tags/stylesheet which
>>> will force it to be used as a stylesheet then add the following.
>>>
>>
>>> @@.oldstyle
>>> (put your table here)
>>> @@
>>>
>>
>> I am sorry, but this should not be "oldstyle" — it should be tw5
>> default-theme-style. What should be there is the option for a theme that
>> looks good and the option for a minimal theme that does not come with any
>> css but rather leaves that for the designer.
>>
>> As for me, *all* styles should always be bundled in themes, even browser
>> resets! No CSS should ship with the core, except when contained in the
>> theme. Otherwise you are forcing a designer to adapt your pattern.
>>
>> Best wishes, Tobias.
>>
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--
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:jeremy.rus...@gmail.com
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