A reminder: my "collection" of Z3810AS notes can be found at http://do-nyc.bodosom.net/. I'll keep it around until there's something better.
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > Hi > > Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach > used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally > well > to these devices. > > Bob > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham <d...@montana.com> wrote: > > > > Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH? > > Don > > > > Bob Camp > >> Hi > >> > >> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W <watsondani...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run > >>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very > minimal > >>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked > and > >>> disciplining to the 1PPS. > >>> > >>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But > things are > >>> looking very good. > >>> > >>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will > post > >>> that here when I am done. > >>> > >>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the > >>> project. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Dan > >>> > >>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi > >>>> > >>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible > >>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% > >>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick > different > >>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” > with an > >>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. > >>>> > >>>> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore > silicon > >>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms > since > >>>> then. > >>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to > call > >>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS > receivers. > >>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and > you > >>>> have a LOT of changes. > >>>> > >>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the > REF-0, > >>>> with > >>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high > >>>> stability / > >>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high > sensitivity > >>>> GPS to > >>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. > >>>> > >>>> ============ > >>>> > >>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins <b...@iaxs.net> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent > hardware. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore > >>>>> receivers. > >>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to > >>>>> use a new > >>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on > the > >>>>> messages > >>>>> required to do that. > >>>>> > >>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as > >>>>> ASCII > >>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be > edited > >>>>> with > >>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and > >>>>> after many > >>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. > >>>>> > >>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The > >>>>> problem > >>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels > >>>>> while > >>>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference > is > >>>>> two > >>>>> more groups of satellite data. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. > >>>>> Considering > >>>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to > b...@iaxs.net > >>>>> for > >>>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, > please > >>>>> make a > >>>>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled > with a > >>>>> 28 volt > >>>>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is > being > >>>>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other > >>>>> stuff. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bill Hawkins > >>>>> Bloomington, MN 55438 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob > >>>>> Camp > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM > >>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > >>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi > >>>>> > >>>>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the > SA > >>>>> era > >>>>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction > information. > >>>>> The signal > >>>>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make > it > >>>>> worth > >>>>> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does > sound > >>>>> reasonable. > >>>>> > >>>>> As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions > >>>>> .. > >>>>> > >>>>> ====== > >>>>> > >>>>> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right > locations. > >>>>> The KS > >>>>> does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same > locations > >>>>> directly > >>>>> over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field. > >>>>> > >>>>> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits > here > >>>>> and there. > >>>>> None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the > Oncore > >>>>> strings > >>>>> are something Mr Google knows a lot about. > >>>>> > >>>>> If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a > uBlox, > >>>>> remember that > >>>>> each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS > >>>>> fired relative to > >>>>> things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting > the > >>>>> time label wrong > >>>>> is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample > empirical > >>>>> evidence of > >>>>> what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. It’s far > >>>>> harder to track down > >>>>> when only looking at the “outside” of the device. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dan exactly my thinking. > >>>>>> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position > lock. > >>>>>> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think > >>>>> there is > >>>>>> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real > >>>>> oncore > >>>>>> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say > whats > >>>>>> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can > all > >>>>>> easily do a fixed string. > >>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> Paul > >>>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <watsondani...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok, > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, > code > >>>>> can be > >>>>>>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, > using > >>>>> a ~$1 > >>>>>>> chip. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should > >>>>> still be > >>>>>>> quite easy to do. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a > >>>>> Jupiter-T > >>>>>>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very > >>>>> nicely > >>>>>>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's > >>>>> notes and > >>>>>>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dan > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Looking forward to the notes. > >>>>>>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that > >>>>>>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps > >>>>> after > >>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low > >>>>> end > >>>>>>> ones > >>>>>>>> will do that stunt very easily. > >>>>>>>> That would be pretty sweet. > >>>>>>>> Paul > >>>>>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably > >>>>> take a > >>>>>>>>> few days > >>>>>>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> What you will need: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 1) A working REF-0 > >>>>>>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going > >>>>>>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) > >>>>>>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there > is > >>>>> no > >>>>>>> real > >>>>>>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> More to follow. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Bob > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <planoph...@aei.ca> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Bob, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a > second > >>>>> REF-0 > >>>>>>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet > >>>>> to > >>>>>>> figure > >>>>>>>>> out what is needed. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position > >>>>> locked in > >>>>>>>>> and spitting out the right strings. > >>>>>>>>>>> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply > >>>>> grabs > >>>>>>>>> the data off of the string > >>>>>>>>>>> as it comes by. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you > off > >>>>> list. > >>>>>>>>> It’s buried around here somewhere. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Bob > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < > >>>>>>>>> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal > >>>>> lines"? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box > >>>>>>> discussions. > >>>>>>>>> All of the work decoding > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off > >>>>> list. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy > string > >>>>> that > >>>>>>>>> looks like the output > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple > >>>>> manipulation > >>>>>>>>> of the signal lines. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < > >>>>>>>>> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one > without > >>>>> GPS, > >>>>>>>>> as a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to > >>>>>>>>> configure it? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 > + > >>>>> USD > >>>>>>>>> 52.30 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as > >>>>> custom > >>>>>>>>> taxes. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > "If you don't know what it is, > > don't poke it." > > Ghost in the Shell > > ------------------------------- > > "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere" > > > > Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL > > Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road > > Huson, MT, 59846 > > mailing address: POBox 404 > > Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 > > > > VOX 406-626-4304 > > CEL 406-241-5093 > > Skype: buffler2 > > www.lightningforensics.com > > www.sixmilesystems.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.