Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's going on?
Bob Camp > Hi > > Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach > used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally well > to these devices. > > Bob > >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham <d...@montana.com> wrote: >> >> Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH? >> Don >> >> Bob Camp >>> Hi >>> >>> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! >>> >>> Bob >>> >>>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W <watsondani...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run >>>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal >>>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and >>>> disciplining to the 1PPS. >>>> >>>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things >>>> are >>>> looking very good. >>>> >>>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will >>>> post >>>> that here when I am done. >>>> >>>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the >>>> project. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible >>>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% >>>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick >>>>> different >>>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with >>>>> an >>>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. >>>>> >>>>> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon >>>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms >>>>> since >>>>> then. >>>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call >>>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS >>>>> receivers. >>>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you >>>>> have a LOT of changes. >>>>> >>>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the >>>>> REF-0, >>>>> with >>>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high >>>>> stability / >>>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity >>>>> GPS to >>>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. >>>>> >>>>> ============ >>>>> >>>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins <b...@iaxs.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore >>>>>> receivers. >>>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to >>>>>> use a new >>>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the >>>>>> messages >>>>>> required to do that. >>>>>> >>>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as >>>>>> ASCII >>>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited >>>>>> with >>>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and >>>>>> after many >>>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. >>>>>> >>>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The >>>>>> problem >>>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels >>>>>> while >>>>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is >>>>>> two >>>>>> more groups of satellite data. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. >>>>>> Considering >>>>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to b...@iaxs.net >>>>>> for >>>>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please >>>>>> make a >>>>>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a >>>>>> 28 volt >>>>>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being >>>>>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other >>>>>> stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Hawkins >>>>>> Bloomington, MN 55438 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob >>>>>> Camp >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM >>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi >>>>>> >>>>>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA >>>>>> era >>>>>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information. >>>>>> The signal >>>>>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it >>>>>> worth >>>>>> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound >>>>>> reasonable. >>>>>> >>>>>> As with any absolute statement, there are sure to be exceptions >>>>>> .. >>>>>> >>>>>> ====== >>>>>> >>>>>> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations. >>>>>> The KS >>>>>> does not care that it always sees the same sats at the same locations >>>>>> directly >>>>>> over its own north pole location. It just wants data in the field. >>>>>> >>>>>> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here >>>>>> and there. >>>>>> None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore >>>>>> strings >>>>>> are something Mr Google knows a lot about. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox, >>>>>> remember that >>>>>> each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS >>>>>> fired relative to >>>>>> things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the >>>>>> time label wrong >>>>>> is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical >>>>>> evidence of >>>>>> what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. Its far >>>>>> harder to track down >>>>>> when only looking at the outside of the device. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dan exactly my thinking. >>>>>>> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock. >>>>>>> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think >>>>>> there is >>>>>>> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real >>>>>> oncore >>>>>>> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats >>>>>>> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all >>>>>>> easily do a fixed string. >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>> WB8TSL >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <watsondani...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok, >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code >>>>>> can be >>>>>>>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using >>>>>> a ~$1 >>>>>>>> chip. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should >>>>>> still be >>>>>>>> quite easy to do. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a >>>>>> Jupiter-T >>>>>>>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very >>>>>> nicely >>>>>>>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's >>>>>> notes and >>>>>>>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Looking forward to the notes. >>>>>>>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that >>>>>>>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps >>>>>> after >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low >>>>>> end >>>>>>>> ones >>>>>>>>> will do that stunt very easily. >>>>>>>>> That would be pretty sweet. >>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>> WB8TSL >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably >>>>>> take a >>>>>>>>>> few days >>>>>>>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What you will need: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1) A working REF-0 >>>>>>>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going >>>>>>>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) >>>>>>>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time its booted, there is >>>>>> no >>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> More to follow. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <planoph...@aei.ca> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bob, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second >>>>>> REF-0 >>>>>>>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> figure >>>>>>>>>> out what is needed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position >>>>>> locked in >>>>>>>>>> and spitting out the right strings. >>>>>>>>>>>> Thats all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply >>>>>> grabs >>>>>>>>>> the data off of the string >>>>>>>>>>>> as it comes by. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ill see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off >>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>> Its buried around here somewhere. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < >>>>>>>>>> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal >>>>>> lines"? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box >>>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>>>> All of the work decoding >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off >>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string >>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> looks like the output >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple >>>>>> manipulation >>>>>>>>>> of the signal lines. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < >>>>>>>>>> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without >>>>>> GPS, >>>>>>>>>> as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to >>>>>>>>>> configure it? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + >>>>>> USD >>>>>>>>>> 52.30 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as >>>>>> custom >>>>>>>>>> taxes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> "If you don't know what it is, >> don't poke it." >> Ghost in the Shell >> ------------------------------- >> "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere" >> >> Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL >> Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road >> Huson, MT, 59846 >> mailing address: POBox 404 >> Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 >> >> VOX 406-626-4304 >> CEL 406-241-5093 >> Skype: buffler2 >> www.lightningforensics.com >> www.sixmilesystems.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > -- "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it." Ghost in the Shell ------------------------------- "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere" Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mailing address: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 CEL 406-241-5093 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
