On Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:17:13 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Blaine wrote: > > Well, DavidM, I admit this passage may be thought to have an > > alternative meaning other than what I have ascribed to it. That > in > > a nutshell is what I have been saying all along. The Bible is > > missing some plain and precious parts, among them not only the > > meaning of this passage, but the meaning of baptism as well. > > A couple of points are in order: > > 1. The Bible is not meant to be made crystal clear by having "plain > and > precious parts" added back to it. Jesus taught in parables, so that > only > those called to salvation would understand the mysteries spoken. > The Holy > Word says, "and without a parable spake he not unto them." In the > same way, > the Bible is not a handbook written for clarity. You don't turn to > chapter > one and learn about being born again, chapter two, repentance, > chapter three > baptism, etc. The Bible is the Word of God, written with the breath > of the > Spirit, so that those who are called by God might know the things of > which > it speaks. > > 2. Your statement above suggests that the Bible cannot be > understood > unless: a) plain and precious parts are put back in, or b) we have > some > supplementary Scripture that will interpret the Bible for us. All > of this > cuts across the very testimony of Scripture itself, that it is not > more > written words that we need, but the Word God living inside of us. > God wants > to write his thoughts upon our hearts by his ever living Spirit. > > Blain wrote: > > John went forth baptizing, and the Lord submitted himself to be > baptized. > > Why? In order to "fulfill all righteousness," as he said. Here > again, > > the meaning may be a little unclear, but putting the two passages > > together, we get the implicit message that Baptism is necessary, > and > > is the "water" being referred to when jesus talked to Nicodemus. > > I think that is a stretch. Are you saying that unless Jesus was > baptized > that he could not enter the Kingdom of God? Are you saying that > Jesus was > not in the Kingdom of God prior to his being baptized by John? Are > you sayi > ng that Jesus had no covenant with the Father until he was baptized > by John? > Are you saying that Jesus had not been born from above prior to John > baptizing him? Are you saying that Jesus could not even see the > kingdom of > God until he was baptized by John? Read John 3 and then read what > you wrote > above; these are the implications if we are to believe your message. > I'm a > little uncomfortable with that. Are you? Please answer these > questions in > light of what you posted above about Jesus needing to be baptized, > and this > making clear that Jesus was talking about baptism in John 3. Blainer) No to all of the above--Jesus had no need to be baptized. He had no sin. Nevertheless, he allowed it to be done. ( He went to Galilee to be baptized of John. After John forbad him, saying, " I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" Jesus replied, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness." (Matthew 3:14-16) He was simply showing the way for us to follow. That is what he meant when he said "Thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness." Being the perfect exemplar, he set the procedure by going through it himself. It was like my Tactical Instructor in basic training in the Air Force. When he wanted us to know how to follow commands given while marching, he first showed how to do it by doing it himself. He was our living example. > Blaine wrote: > > Unfortunately, I have had to use the word "implicit," because > > the meaning is not PERFECTLY clear for someone as critical > > as yourself. And I think you are not alone. There are many > > others out there who want it made perfectly clear, and in a > > sense, I can't really blame them. > > I think the passage is PERFECTLY clear as it is. I think I know > exactly > what it says. The reason I point out to you that the passage does > not say > baptism is because I think you read it with your Mormon bias and > automatically think it must mean baptism, because of what Joseph > Smith wrote > in that book you read. Blainer) Maybe that is true, but then again many Protestants draw the same conclusion without the BoM to bias their minds. Also many so-called "sects" teach the same. > > Blaine wrote: > > (Actually, there are many references to baptism scattered > throughout > > the Bible, some more explicit than others, but none alone that > clearly > > explains what it is all about. Unless you put them all > together--in > > which case the entire purpose and meaning of baptism does become > > clear.) > > Yes. I have put them all together and been taught of the Holy > Spirit and > believe that I understand baptism very well. Blainer) So, why do you think He allowed himself to be baptized, and why do you think the Holy Spirit descended on Him afterwards?? This was clearly a major event. Probably the most important event since his birth. > > Blaine wrote: > > The act of Baptism is: > > A. Necessary for salvation in the Kingdom of God > > Disagree. Acts 10 is an example of people believing upon Jesus, > being saved > / born from above, and receiving the Holy Ghost, all before being > baptized. Blainer) The Holy Ghost, like the wind, comes and goes as it pleases, we do not know why or where. But to have it as a constant companion, we must a) live righteously, and b) have entered into the covenant to take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ, by being baptized. > > Blaine wrote: > > B. To be done by immersion, for the remission of sins > > Agreed. > > Blaine wrote: > > C. Immersion refers to the death, burial and resurrection > > of Jesus Christ > > Agreed. > > Blaine wrote: > > D. An act of entering into a covenant to take upon > > oneself the name of Jesus Christ, and to witness for him. > > Agreed. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you > have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
