DANG: RE: christian - It seems that this topic is getting some commentary from Glenn and DavidM. I would make the distinction that the meaning of the word is not in the word itself as anyone can use it. I can claim to be PhD, but without the sheepskin, I am a liar. Similarly so here. DavidM calls christian anyone who follows Jesus Christ who walked the earth. Glenn makes a clear distinction that one is bought or owned by Jesus Christ who walked the earth. Chistian also carries meaning that includes being redeemed unto God by the work of Jesus. But, redeemed by one who is as I may become, i.e. like me, is nothing. Jesus Christ is as the Bible states in John 1.
Joh 1:1-3, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." What history as recorded in the Bible shows to be the man Jesus Christ is the focus of christian. Jesus Christ is not some great stories made up to constitute religion. He is what the Bible says He is. Christian has everything to do with who He is, not what we think he is. > DAVEH: It seems to be that way. But I can't figure out why. When I asked for a definition of "Christian", Glenn said that a Christian is one who believes in the divine birth, death/burial and resurrection of Jesus. I believe such, therefore by his > definition I would be considered "Christian". But that isn't the way it works. I >don't think anybody on TT considers me a Christian. > > So Dan, how would you define it??? > > > Meaning, let's call a spade a spade, and just because you acknowledge some history >of > > Jesus, and satan does the same, does not make you christian. > > DAVEH: I agree. > > > Otherwise satan is > > christian? DANG: DaveH, you are correct belief alone does mot make a christian. Christian is the work of God. > DAVEH: Even the devils believe. Which suggests that belief alone neither makes a Christian nor brings salvation. > > > Christian has to do with Jesus Christ , nobody else, no JS, no anybody else. DANG: Yes, DaveH, I do think this thru and agree with you. It is the work of all sovreign God that constitutes salvation, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. God has brought to each of us a knowledge of Jesus Christ as saviour, and that constitutes christian, not what I have done or what I believe. > DAVEH: Have you thought that through, DanG? Without "anybody else", would you even >know about Jesus? > > > And Jesus told us that the scriptures testify of Himself throughout. > > DAVEH: And who penned the Scriptures? Was it not the Lords prophets? Without them, we wouldn't have Scriptures. DANG: I know that as you say, men were involved somehow if we are to be logical, but who was there and what record is given as to the penning of scripture? It seems a frivolous topic as to who penned scripture, but the Bible is clear in numerous places about this topic and it never accrues responsibility to men. Read the following verses. These are truth and there needs no further notes made to this, unless you want to go away from truth and speculate. 2Ti 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." > > I mean this not in > > an argumentative or demeaning manner. > > DAVEH: I know. And, I appreciate your ease of discussion. Sometimes it is much too >easy to turn simple discussions into major battles. > > > Your christ that is pre-mortal brother to satan is > > not the same Jesus Christ that walked the earth. > > DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. Let me offer Job 1:6 as evidence........ > > "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." > > ........Do you believe Jesus is a Son of God, DanG? DANG: I believer Jesus Christ is who the Bible says he is. I will not misconstrue understanding of what the Bible says He is, I will let it speak to you, if you will read it. I read it and have a saving knowledge of God thru Jesus Christ by it. I will defer to the Bible for its claims on anyone and all knowledge of truth. Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." > > Your christ is distinctly a creation of > > a few men here in the USA some 150 years ago and that is all any rational person >can > > conclude - you refer to the rational nature of LDS that you respect/like. >Christians do > > not have any similar type of belief system based on some late day prophet > > DAVEH: Sure they do. To the Jews/Israelites/Hebrews, all the NT prophets (those who wrote the NT) are "late day" prophets, are they not? Perhaps you would rather say "modern day" instead? > > > - christians > > reject that which is not of Jesus Christ alone. > > DAVEH: Then much of the Bible could be rejected. I previously mentioned one >particular OT book that did not even mention the name of "God". Christians wouldn't reject ESTHER, would they? > > > Outside of you say, then I say, LDS is > > all story and does not constitute truth. Whereas, the Bible is something outside of man, > > by its claims and its history. Read it and let it draw you to God, and don't let >some > > preconceived rational notions of some men like JS guide what you read there. > > > > To carry on further, with question of what LDS believe - if I believe the Bible and the > > Bible only, am I a fool? DANG: DaveH, sure you are judge, that is what this thread is all about - what do you believe? I am not asking for a judgement, I am asking what you believe. So, tell me what you believe - if I believe the Bible alone, am I a fool, or in danger of hellfire? > DAVEH: I'm not one to judge your mental state, DanG. > > > I do not find reference to what you describe in the Bible - re: > > pre-mortal existence, > > DAVEH: It does not specifically mention "pre-mortal existence".....that is a term I >have used to describe what happened prior to our being born in mortality. There are a number of Bible passages that refer to it. Apparently the Lord's disciples > believed in a life before this one, as can be seen by their question to Jesus....... > > "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his >disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents that he was born blind? Jesus answered, neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the > works of God should be made manifest in him." DANG: DaveH, do not add to scripture. The Bible here does not use the word "before." If you want to add that, you are welcome, but that no longer constitutes truth, it is yours, and not truth. The concept of Ro3:23 is clear and simple and conclusive "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Take it in its simplicity. This is conclusive leaving nobody out, including the man blind from birth. Leave it there, and the question of "before" is meaningless. I leave it there. > .......Have you ever considered why they would have thought it possible for this man >to sin BEFORE he was born, DanG? Ponder it and ask yourself why they would have asked such a question. > > > etc. so I am a fool if I depend on the Bible alone? > > DAVEH: Before I answer that DanG, let me ask you if you think the Jews are fools for believing in they consider the "Bible alone"? DANG: DaveH, I have no answer to this question. I know the story of the assemblage of the canon of scripture, but have no answer to what jews/men do. I know God is at work, and that is a wonder, because, but for the grace of God, there go I also. I have no claim to understanding His work of grace in me, but I am assured of the fact that: Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Peace with God - wow!!! > As I said before, I am not one to judge you. If you wish to limit your knowledge of >the Lord's will to only that which was recorded in the Bible, then you risk missing something he may have revealed elsewhere. We have previously discussed that the > Bible does not contain all knowledge, or even all that the Lord has revealed. (I >assume you agree with that???) So then I would ask you if you outright reject material purported from the Lord just because it is not in the Bible? If so, then how would > you know if you ever came across material from God that is not recorded in the >Bible? It seems to me that that is the stance of modern day Jews. For the most part, they have rejected revelations from the Lord that Protestants today consider Scripture. > > I guess that I don't understand why Protestants today are so reluctant to think that >the Lord can reveal Scripture in modern times. Why did the Bible "stop" when it did? If the Lord is the same today as he was yesterday, is it not logical that God > would continue to reveal his secrets unto his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7) as he >did in ancient times? What has changed that would cause the Lord to stop revealing Scripture to modern prophets? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about that, DanG. DANG: DaveH, I take the Bible because it is done and there is no confusion therein. If I take a prophet today, how do I know he is a prophet? Why do I seek signs today? Is there not enough for me to be drawn to God and seek His salvation in Jesus Christ? I need no further witness. What am I doing with the witness I have in the Bible? The Bible is enough as it is what it says it is. I take the Bible as it is written. It is enough. Re 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." LDS is like so many other religions - depend on our teachings and we will get you to heaven. Do what we say and you will be saved or become god. This is man leading man, not God leading man. I don't want more religion, I want more of Jesus Christ - I want to know Jesus Christ as He is, and the Bible has more than a lifetime of study to fulfill that. I like this long/old hymn, some may know it, by Rutherford - The Sands of Time - here a couple verses: Oh, I am my Beloved's, And My Beloved is mine! He brings a poor vile sinner Into His "house of wine." I stand upon His merit, I know no safer stand, Not e'en where glory dwelleth, In Immanuel's land The bride eyes not her garment, But her dear bridegroom's face: I will not gaze at glory, But on the King of Grace; Not at the crown He giveth, But on His pierced hand -- The Lamb is all the glory In Immanuel's land. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
