The BIBLE is VERY CLEAR we are to warn them all of them. "God loves you" is NOT a warning! The choice is yours, God says if you do not warn their BLOOD is on your hands! ANY BLOODY HANDS out there?
EZ 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
COL 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
God's Word is clear, to those that have EARS to hear. WARN them or have God REQUIRE their BLOOD at YOUR HANDS!David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Miller wrote:
>> Who does God take out his wrath upon? My point is that
>> God casts the sinner into hell, not the sin. God does
>> not separate the sinner from the sin and say, "I love
>> you sinner".
Judy wrote:
> **Jesus did this when he went to the cross for us and
> he also did it when he asked the Father to forgive the
> ones who were responsible for they didn't know, or were
> unaware of what they were doing.
What? Are you saying that when Jesus went to the cross, that separated
the sin from the sinner and allows God to cast sin into hell rather than
the sinner? This theology sounds really weird to me. I must not be
understanding you.
Do you think that Jesus asks God not to hold anyone in the world
accountable for any of their sin just because of this one act of
forgiveness? In other words, concerning his request for forgiveness
toward the soldiers obeying orders, do you think Jesus has this same
request for everyone for every sin, or do you think that there are some
sins which he does not forgive?
Judy wrote:
> **I believe as Paul taught that once God winked at
> sin in the days of men's ignorance but now (since
> the cross) He commands everyone to repent.
Right! Isn't that what the preachers are declaring? Repent!
David Miller wrote:
> I was taught this same doctrine in the institutional
> churches I was brought up in, and one day I read a
> sermon by Jonathan Edwards that made it crystal clear
> that the object of God's wrath is the sinner not the
> sin.
Judy wrote:
> **Jonathan Edwards sermon was said to be effective
> in that day but I don't know that presenting a God
> of terror is all that good; and this was not the
> way Jesus presented Him.
First of all, I was not talking about presenting a God of terror. I was
talking about the understanding that the object of God's wrath is the
sinner, not the sin. Secondly, Jesus preached more about hell than any
other person in the Bible. If it were not for Jesus and his teaching, I
don't think any of us would be talking about hell fire. Without the
teachings of Jesus, there would be NO hell fire preachers. Jesus was
the first hell fire and damnation preacher in the Bible so I really
can't relate to your comment that Jesus did not present God as one who
would judge.
David Miller wrote:
>> Add to this concept the word of Scripture which
>> cannot be broken, that God hates the workers of
>> iniquity (Psalm 5:5), and also David's comment
>> that he hates the enemies of God with a perfect
>> hatred (Psalm 139:22), and it suddenly becomes
>> clear that I was made a sissy by the propaganda
>> of Christianity.
Judy wrote:
> **What about other scripture that can not be broken
> which says that God so loved the world that He gave
> His ONLY begotten son so that whosoever believed on
> Him would not perish and what about the scriptures
> that say God is married to the backslider and God is
> not willing that any perish but that all come to the
> knowledge of the truth. Mercy triumphs over sacrifice
> etc....
Jonathan Edwards made a big point that without the hell fire and terror
of God, mercy cannot exist. We make mercy impotent and non-existent
even when we do not reveal the true and accurate judgment of God.
Nobody is trying to remove the GOOD NEWS that there has been made a way
out. The problem is that our society is so permeated with a grace
message that nobody understands God's judgment. The pendulum of
understanding has swung away from the law to grace, grace, grace, so
that the balance now is to emphasize the judgment. Most people today do
not think they need a Savior, and so if we don't get about the business
of emphasizing this truth, the gospel story will become a myth and
nobody will trust in Jesus. If you don't know you need a Savior, you
can't trust in Him.
Judy wrote:
... not to beat them down in shame, rebuke, and condemnation.
I don't think anybody is talking about beating them down in shame,
rebuke and condemnation. What is desired is to make it clear that
without them walking in faith toward Christ, they are condemned.
Judy wrote:
> **Right. It's already there so we don't need
> street ministry going out and adding to it.
Nobody is adding to God's wrath. The point is that many people do not
realize that the wrath of God abides upon them until a preacher declares
unto them the commandment of God to repent.
Judy wrote:
>>> People do not need to go there unless they refuse
>>> to love the truth and insist on holding or clinging
>>> to the lie. We will spend eternity with whoever we serve.
David Miller wrote:
>> You make this sound like some kind of automatic
>> thing that God has no control over. Do you believe
>> that God in anger and wrath casts the wicked into
>> hell fire as punishment for how they lived on earth?
Judy wrote:
> **God is sovereign and has set everything in motion
> so I am certainly not saying that He has no control.
> However, His Word is forever settled in heaven and
> He can not go against it. We have been given a
> measure of time on this earth to get it together and
> so the choice is ours, we don't have to be punished
> in hell fire and if we are it is our choice rather
> than His will.
I have HUGE problems with what you just said. You make God out to be
some kind of clock maker God that wound everything up and just let it
rip. Wherever people fall out, that is it.
While I don't deny God setting certain things in motion, I see God as
very active and intimately aware of every detail. I also see that in
judgment, God personally acts in anger, casting offenders into hell with
emotions of hatred toward their iniquity. In like manner, he looks upon
those who have trusted in Christ with great love and warmth and
appreciation, receiving them as his children. I say this not because
that is how I would act. If I had it my way, I would try to find a way
for everyone to be saved. But that is because I am unrighteous. I read
the Bible and I see that while on the one hand God is good, on the other
hand he can be a very angry fellow who does not allow even the smallest
sin to go excused.
David Miller wrote:
>> But you seem to have the same popular notion as he
>> does that a loving God does not DIRECTLY, out of
>> anger, punish people with pain for all eternity.
>> You sort of make it sound like the sinners choose
>> to go to hell instead of heaven.
Judy wrote:
> **This is what I believe. How can you read "It is
> NOT God's will for any to perish but for ALL to
> come to the knowledge of truth any other way?
That passage is talking about why it is taking God so long to cast them
into hell. It suggests nothing at all like what you suggest, that God
does not angrily act against the sinner. It simply means that God is
being patient so that as many as can be saved will be saved. He is
giving time for the preachers to reach people with the gospel so that
not one person needlessly is lost.
Judy wrote:
> **I believe that God's grace works with the believer
> in a different way but sin is sin and God hates it
> just as much in the believer as He does in the
> unbeliever because it is destructive and separates
> both from Him.
And God will hate the believer just as much too if he does not repent.
If a believer stumbles, there is a big difference because immediately he
is humble and repents. Those who are outside of Christ, however, have a
different attitude. I never really walked in that so I can't speak from
experience. I was saved when I was five. But I meet people in the
world and I see that they enjoy sin and boldly proclaim that they will
be saved because of what Jesus did for them on the cross.
Judy wrote:
> **LOVE is an attitude of the heart; noone in
> their right mind would counsel a man to go hug
> other men at a "gay pride" affair. IMO it's
> best to leave them until they get far enough
> into the depths of despair to start looking up
> and some do;
Excuse me, Judy, but what you just said is RIDICULOUS! You let people
go off into homosexuality, and their lives get messed up big time.
Suicide rates are higher among homosexuals, and the bondage of sin is
much worse upon them the longer they give their lives over to it. True
love will recognize this and yell at them, "STOP IT! YOU ARE DESTROYING
YOURSELVES!"
What parent in their right mind, seeing their own children go into drug
abuse, would say, "I'll just let them do their own thing an then when
they start looking up and realizing for themselves that they went the
wrong way, then I will help them." It sounds to me like you just don't
like confrontation and maybe you don't want the persecution that comes
with standing up for righteousness.
Judy wrote:
> **Maybe not in your experience David but that's not
> what I'm talking about. I don't mean sweep the sin
> under the rug, I mean deal with it in an atmosphere
> of love and trust. People will not open up about
> their deepest needs in the "church" because they
> fear rejection.
We are talking about very different ministries here. Those who are
believing, or those who are humble, they need a different message that
the self righteous people in the world that most street preachers
confront.
Judy wrote:
> I have no problem with a brother or sister so long
> as they hate their sin (not just everyone elses) and
> are moving on in the Lord.
I'm on the same page with you on this, but what about the one who loves
their sin instead of hates it? Isn't the message of repentance
appropriate?
Judy wrote:
> **They hate God because they are walking in their
> old Adamic fallen nature which is in fact, the
> nature of the devil. God understands this and He
> doesn't hate them, if He did Jesus wouldn't have
> been as a lamb slain from the foundation of the
> world. I can understand your reaction though.
Not only does God hate them, but Jesus hates them. This is what the
Scriptures say. I don't fully understand it, but it is in the Bible.
What is the wrath of the Lamb? Doesn't that mean Jesus is ANGRY with
those who have rejected the kingdom and persecute his messengers?
I feel like if you saw Jesus preaching woe, woe, woe unto this
generation and telling them that their sins were worse than Sodom and
Gomorrah, that you would start rebuking Jesus. It seems like you would
tell him to give them more time and not try to force them to believe the
gospel message. You would probably tell him not to use abuse and
intimidation. You might even tell him that he would be more effective
if he softened his approach and that people were rejecting him because
of the way in which he was presenting his message.
Judy wrote:
Think about it, if God really hated the sinner
Jesus would never have gone to Calvary for him.
We are talking about Jesus first dying on Calvary, and then people
rejecting that. When people reject such a wonderful and loving act, how
does that make God feel? The Bible says God gets angry about that. I
admit that I don't get angry about it, but isn't that because I am
unrighteous? I think if I were to mature and be more like God, then I
would become more angry at this kind of behavior.
Judy wrote:
> **Just a thought but - could be you rebuked the
> homosexual who was prancing because he was actively
> distracting ppl from hearing the Word you were
> preaching and I do believe that the Lord takes
> care of His own.
Interestingly, I have found that often such tactics draw a crowd and
cause people to be more interested in what I have to say. People get
interested when they see conflict between light and darkness.
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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