Fw: RE: [TruthTalk] I found it Blaine...but you lost it

[jandgtaylor1]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It is a shame because they are teaching them that authority comes from man instead of from God.  You can see this in the Mormons themselves in their speech here on TruthTalk.  They believe they will be saved because of the authority they believe that their church has through Joseph Smith.  Instead, men and women should see that God is the source of all our actions and He is the one who gives authority to speak or act.   **Is He the source of all our actions? A lot has and is being done in the name of God that is 'acting out in the flesh' When love is not the motive it is not of God, doesn't matter how religious it looks, there are lots of religious spirits out there masquerading and acting like the real.   DavidM: If a person thinks that they have to ask for permission before he can speak in a public area, that person is not free.  He lives in bondage to the authority of men.  Not only should a man be free to speak in public without asking permission, believers in the church should be free to stand up and speak without first getting permission from pastor, priest, or anyone else.   **I heartily agree with you about 'body ministry' in the Church, I find it sad that today everything revolves around one man (the pastor) but there should be mature oversight.  As for speaking in public freely - I have some reservations about the abuse of this right even though it is (at present) constitutional. I can't see it lasting too much longer because of noise pollution - the EPA may eventually put a stop to it and the Right to Lifers and Street Preachers may hurry it along.   Judy wrote: How can it be a weakness to use common sense. If ppl are not interested then why not respect  their wishes?   DavidM: If a bridge was out and a car was driving toward it, and you tried to tell the person driving to stop but he did not appear interested in what you had to say, what would you do?  Would you comfort yourself with, "well, I tried, but he would not listen?"  I think you would try jumping up and down and making some noise and get them interested in the information that you had, that if they kept driving down that road, they were going to run off the bridge and be killed.   **I've seen tracts with the above scenario on them; however, I believer God is bigger than this and that he has others out there - He is ultimately in control and He is not limited to JUST me.  Possibly the person will become interested later. We hate telemarketers who intrude at dinner time and will not take No for an answer - and don't pay any mind to what they say.   DavidM: I don't like telemarketers either.  We have a right to privacy in our homes and in our work place.  We do not have a right to privacy in the public arena.  That is what I keep repeating, but if you are not involved in public ministry, the point just gets lost.  It is sad that the only people who value the concept of free speech seem to be those who feel the need to be engaged in it.   **Is the Mormon Temple in SLC a public arena?  The actions of some of those who feel the need to be engaged in it may lose this right for all of us.  I wrote: Is the above completely honest?  (not being interested in converting anyone to a religion or belief) I've seen lots of notch counting here and have been accused of not doing anything because I'm not out there on the street like the rest of you racking up converts.   DavidM: The notch counting came up because you challenged whether preaching works.  If you claim to have the better way, we want to examine whether that is true, and at the same time, if your methods are not as good, we want you to face that and own up to it.    **I've never challenged whether or not preaching works. Scripture says that God uses the foolishness of preaching. What I did challenge is the 'lack of love and caring' - the attitude toward the ignorant and unbelieving that I see in some who go out there and try to win them for Christ.   I wrote: It's not their outward appearance David, it's an attitude or tone that comes from them and it's also on this list.  It's like they are untouchable and can do no wrong because they represent GOD so the rest of us should meet their standard or else we are deceived on purpose or in gross error.    DavidM: The attitude of which you speak is not unnoticed by me.  Like I said, I think you are sharing some things that need to be heard, but one reason they do not hear you is because you do not acknowledge the things that you need to hear.    **Then possibly you could share some of the things I need to hear more kindly. I do appreciate the freedom you provide on TT (the open forum) and I realize that this is unusual in a Christian setting.  So many want to conform everyone to their image of how things ought to be.    I wrote: I've been accused of everything BUT being a Christian by ppl on this list.   DavidM: Well, I hereby accuse you of being a Christian, Judy.  So there!  LOL.   **Well thank you DavidM... you have made my day :>)   DavidM: Ok, you have a point.  They are being hard on you.  Could it be that you are being a little myopic, speaking a little more than listening?  Two ear and one mouth, right?  How about listening twice as much as speaking?  :-)   **In my views or in the volume of my responses?  Possibly I should let some of them go by but then I enjoy discussing some of these issues and being challenged as you have said you do...but when my house guests arrive I will have to shut down.   I wrote: Wishful thinking David, can you see an Evangelical being invited into the Vatican to address the Pope and Cardinals? I sure can't.   DavidM: I agree.  I wasn't doing "wishful thinking" but exposing why the problem exists.  When governments don't hear the people, the protestors rise up. When everyone is heard and properly represented by those in authority, then you won't have the protestors out there making an issue.    **This never works with any authoritarian structure such as the Vatican and Mormon hierarchy, they are not democratic.   DavidM: In other words, some people are blaming the street preachers, but the real blame lies with those in authority who will not hear those whom God has sent.  The Mormon Temple in Utah has had many passing out tracts for years and years (such as James White and his team).  I suspect there may have been some Mormons too, who instead of being heard, were excommunicated.  Now God has seen fit to bring in the Street Preachers. I conclude that the voices have not been heard, so God is sending those with a more bold message so that these Mormons will be without excuse in the day of judgment.   **Oh, there are a lot of people making inroads quietly and unobtrusively and lots of ex Mormons who are exit-counselling others.  I've read their literature and I've read books by ex-Mormons so God is working with or without street preaching.  It's good to remember the experience of Elijah.  God was not in the earthquake, nor was he in the hurricane. Elijah heard Him in the still small voice.   Grace and Peace, Judy