1) the idea of a child being born with inherent, original sin, resulting from the fall and inherited from Adam, and
2) a child being born with a sin nature resulting from the fall and inherited from Adam.
I believe the first leads to the idea of infant baptism to wash away the inherent sin, as in the RCC, and the second leads to the idea of an age of accountability, before which one has a sin nature but is not held accountable for sins committed prior to some point in one's life.
David seems to be arguing from the viewpoint of the first, while Judy seems to be arguing from the viewpoint of the second. Do I have this right?
Perry
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:47:54 -0500
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> How could A&E have sinned, IF they did not know right from wrong?
Judy: They knew it was right to obey the voice of the Lord who was their Creator
DAVEH: Unless you have Biblical evidence, that would be an assumption on your part, Judy.
Judy: It's no assumption and it doesn't take a 'rocket scientist' DaveH. Genesis 2:16 "And the Lord God COMMANDED THE MAN saying of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat....but" - and they certainly knew God meant what He said and they had done wrong after the fact because guilt and shame which is part of the curse was all over them.
DAVEH: Thank you......you made my point. It was AFTER partaking the FF that they had the knowledge of good and evil.
Judy: They knew it was wrong/evil to rebel against the COMMAND of God. The curse does not come on people for doing good. When you told your child not to do something for their own safety and well being and they did it anyway - did you spank/punish them or did you rationalize that this could not have been wrong because they did not comprehend your whole mindset. Did you find some way to make it good?
DAVEH: It does no good to physically punish a child who does not know the difference between right and wrong. First he must be taught what is right and wrong AND he then must be capable of knowing the difference. (Would you physically punish a mentally retarded person for not understanding something?)
Judy: What about obeying the voice of his/her Father? I'm not talking about infants here.
DAVEH: You seem to be thinking I'm trying to find a way to rationalize that what the did (transgression) was good.
Judy: Well that's the subject line isn't it "Adam's Fall Upward?"
DAVEH: >From my perspective, I'm not rationalizing at all. I have attained my understanding from extra-Biblical revelation from God.
Judy: God does not change, He is not a man that He should lie and He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Any revelation that is from Him must harmonize with what has already been written.
DAVEH: What I am trying to do for you is having you consider the logic of what the Bible tells you without resorting to latter-day revelation. I really don't know much about how Protestantism reacts to thinking outside the box, so to speak.
Judy: Hey Dave Aristotle the grandfather of logic was not a believer, he was a pagan Greek so what makes you think logic is the way to Truth? It may be wiser to recognize who you are vs who God is, take responsibility, repent for your own sin and allow God to give you understanding.
DAVEH: Do theologians ever wonder why God prepared a Savior before even creating the Garden of Eden? To me, it seems a relatively interesting question that has very important consequences of doctrine.
Judy: God in His omniscience knows what will happen before it takes place DaveH so he is more than two steps ahead of all of us and the ONLY way you will ever be able to understand His Word and His Way is to lay aside your own speculations, then come and sit humbly at his feet.
DAVEH: To me the LDS perspective makes logical sense, yet the Protestant belief as I understand it leaves a lot of unanswered questions..... and, apparently leads to erroneous doctrine such as original sin and infant baptism.
Judy: Well then I guess it's your choice to spend eternity with Aristotle, Plato and the rest of the pagan Greeks. Original sin is not a false doctrine and infant baptism is a faith issue on the part of parents. I would much rather be guilty of this than what goes on in the Mormon Temple.
DAVEH: Is there any place in the Bible where A&E's eating of the forbidden fruit is referred to as a sin, or......do the Bible authors simply refer to it as a transgression?
Judy: The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit and sin is the transgression of the law" (see 1 John 3:4) A&E had just one law/command in the garden which was - "DO NOT EAT" and they broke it which made them transgressors of God's law and this is sin.
DAVEH: Like I said, Judy......the Bible never refers to Adam's Sin it is always Adam's Transgression. Now I would wonder if God's command to Adam equates with law. When a parent tells his child not to do something, is it really law?
Judy: I have shown you the definition of sin from scripture, apparently you will not believe it. Parents are not God but a wilfully rebellious child is a scourge upon the home and on society in general. This is why we have civil law; otherwise anarchy would reign.
DAVEH: Often (most) times that is the case. But not always, IMHO. Look at James 4:17......."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." This begs the question, does it not did Adam & Eve knoweth to do good prior to partaking of the fruit.
Judy: Yes they did know to do good since obeying God is what they were COMMANDED and knew to do and this is always GOOD.
DAVEH: I'd say you are logically upside down on that, Judy.
Judy: I don't follow logic DaveH even though God's Word is not capricious or illogical; the rules of logic are not the way to receive understanding from God. Disobeying God is BAD because transgressing His law is sin; this is HIS definition and the only one that counts so far as eternity is concerned.
DAVEH: So...you are saying a small child who transgresses is sinning is that correct? If so, I respectfully disagree with you on that, Judy.
Judy:
No I am not saying that. I used the child only as an analogy. A&E
were created full grown - they were not infants and the one who
created them held them responsible to obey His COMMAND.
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