Charles Perry Locke wrote:
In Romans 1:17ff Paul says "The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
So, there is no excuse for anyone past, present, or future, and all will be judged justly whether or not they have heard the gospel. There is no second chance.
DAVEH: It seems to me that most folks I discuss this with want to change it to a second chance discussion, Perry. Why do you feel the need to do that. I have repeatedly said that I am referring to the first chance to hear the gospel and accept Jesus. Let me ask you point blank......
1) Do you believe all men will have the opportunity to accept Jesus?
2) Do you believe there are any mortals who do not get that chance while in mortality?
3) Do you have any valid reason to think the Lord will not give those who in this life do not have the chance to hear the gospel and accept Jesus.....that he will give them the opportunity to hear the gospel (as is suggested in 1Pet 3:19) in the next life?
All will be judged.
DAVEH: Agreed. However, I would like to know if you think there will be some who will be judged without having the opportunity to hear the gospel and accept Jesus......???
Perry
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/2/2004 9:53:56 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: I'm hung up on it because I find the popular Christian
perception to be very interesting. To me it is obviously
symbolic, but to most Christians it seems to be a literal lake of
fire. Yet (to me) it seems so illogical.....That a loving God
would punitively punish people who never had the chance to
accept/believe Jesus by physically torturing them forever. Seems
pretty harsh.....even for the wrath of God, does it not! Contrast that to the Lord's story of the prodigal son.....do you
find both teachings to be at odds?
I have been thinking about this response. Putting aside those
who die without the opportunity to hear about Jesus,
DAVEH: Why do that, Laura. That seems like a much more interesting topic than the one you question below.
Laura: Because I think there is a difference - I wonder how many actually don't have a chance to hear the gospel but those who reject I believe will end up in hell.
DAVEH: Pick an arbitrary number (%). You will be either high or low. Does it really interest you one way or the other? On the other hand.....if only one person unjustly suffers the wrath of God....is that not something you would find interesting? Does God actually unjustly torture those who don't have the opportunity to learn of Jesus? If find it intriguing that many Christians apparently believe such, and wonder why they come to that conclusion when it seems the Bible teaches otherwise.
What is your opinion of those who deliberately choose not to accept the gift of salvation?
DAVEH: As I've said many times before in TT......Jesus is not going to force anybody to heaven. So, if somebody deliberately chooses not to be reside with him in heaven, he won't end up there.
Having said that though......as I've also mentioned numerous
times in TT.....I believe Jesus' resurrection applies to all men. All (mortals) will be resurrected due to the grace of our Lord. So.....in a sense, even those who reject the gospel message will
benefit from our Savior's grace.
Surely you don't think they get a second chance after death? Laura
DAVEH: The question becomes......how do you define what
constitutes a first chance. Does merely hearing Jesus' name mean
that one has been exposed enough to the gospel to be convicted to
a torturous eternal punishment if one does not grasp the concept
of the gospel message? Not in my opinion. I believe there are a
lot of folks who for numerous reasons simply do not understand the
Savior's gospel message. Will they be held accountable for their
lack of knowledge....???.....not in my opinion. At some point
though, all will understand it.....as all knees will bow to our Lord.
Laura: I mean a chance to accept Christ after physical death.
DAVEH: Ignore for a moment your concern for a /second /chance after death. (That is a different discussion, Laura.) Do you believe those who do not have the chance to accept Jesus while in mortality, will have a chance to accept him after death? To me, the Bible suggests that is the case. Not only did some early Christians baptize for the dead (which implies they thought the previously dead folks would have a chance to accept Jesus in the post mortal realm), but I've previously mentioned 1Pet 3:18-19 and 1Pet 4:6 as evidence that Jesus preached the gospel to dead folks so that they could be judged as though in the flesh, in order that they can live according to God. What passages do you feel suggest that those who did not have the opportunity to accept Jesus in mortality, would not have the chance after death?
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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