----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 10, 2004 20:08
Subject: [TruthTalk] the real vs
false
From: "Jonathan Hughes" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Good evening
Judy,
Do not be too dismayed by being judgmental. You are in good
company; I myself am quite critical. J
jt: Your criticisms are on a personal/national
level. I don't practice that and this is why I would like a list of what I
have said that you consider to be judgmental.
I am being very honest when I say that I could easily whip up a post
containing many references to you being judgmental, towards myself and
others. You may think I am being double minded or hypocritical when I
now state that I will not do this.
jt: Why not? If you are going to
continue to accuse you should be able to produce the grounds for
your accusation.
If you go back a few months you will see where I have tried this with you
before (not just me but others tried as well [there is that ambiguous others
again I have no desire to out what others have communicated to me in
private.
jt: Others like Ellsman, Chris Barr,
Lance? I'm not surprised to learn that we have some private gossiping going on as well; so much for the
divine dance and all inclusive incarnation. Bad fruit.
A quick look back through your emails in the last 4 months will make it
very clear that the tone and judgmental attitude
expressed in your posts
have been called into question a number of times.]). It was
unsuccessful. Note that to your credit this time you have actually
invited critique.
jt: The reason I am asking you for evidence this time
Jonathan is because I am weary of your constantly alluding to these things.
You never dialogue in an up front way and neither does Lance. Both
of you use obscure theological words and lots of one
liners. You appear to have some favorite authors and theologians in
common but there is no fellowship around God's Word. At this point I
don't believe you know the Word of God or the God of the Word. Now I am
not being mean or judgmental - as you have repeatedly claimed "I am just
stating how I see it"
The comment below was a contrast between Izzys graceful response to my
illness and yours. You may think it double minded of me to praise Izzy
in one post and in another give a rather severe critique. Never confuse a critique on something specific (such as a
behaviour, action, or words) with a critique on who the
person is as a whole.
jt: What??? You don't know
either of us as a whole Jonathan. Izzy is a nurse by profession so you
apparently relate to her professional approach which is fine but all you have
is an opinion based on an internet persona with little or no actual
knowledge.
Anyways, conscious of the fact that I have a chronic illness and struggle
mightily with your viewpoint on a connection between sin and illness you made
a few responses that I felt contained little if any compassion. I
thought that you should have been softer. I feel that you should be much
softer in almost all of your posts. I would love to see a spirit of
gentleness and caring from you.
jt: Jonathan if you've been struggling with CFS for
16yrs I would think you would want to be free of it. I know it feels
good to be stroked but until you deal with the underlying spiritual
issues you will die with CFS so I try to encourage in a different way.
During his earthly ministry Jesus told people he healed to "go and sin no
more lest a worse thing come on you" Do you think he was being
judgmental and hard on them?
What I usually see is a number of biblical passages thrown together to
make a hard edged argument. What I find disconcerting about your
theology is that it does not seem to be good news at all.
jt: They are not just "thrown together" - Have you
bothered to go to the Lord about these things? To me the Good News is
the proof of the pudding - which is actual freedom rather than all this high
sounding doctrinal talk.
It doesnt lead me to Gods feet in worship. You may be surprised to
learn that I used to think much like you do (actually I was probably even more
conservative). I used to argue with passages in the same way, driving my
point home as if I could speak for God.
jt: God has already spoken, and I accept it. I'm not
driving anything home. It's your choice where you want to walk.
God had to wear me down quite a bit to allow the grace of Jesus Christ to
seep into my heart (and He continues to do so). I am sure you think that
I have fallen into deception. I think I have never been more in love
with Him, nor had the
ability to love others like I do now.
jt: Apparently these others don't include the
leadership of the USA. I hope you don't mind if I am brutally honest
(rather than judgmental) but it has been my observation that those of you who
hold to this incarnational perichoresis are very easily offended and seem to
consider that you live on a higher plane.
Judyt
Jonathan,
You have got to be the most double minded man I have come
across on an
internet list to date - Today you write:
JH: I prefer
Izzys way as it demonstrates love and her deep
relationship with
God. I feel that your way demonstrates judgement.
There is a time to
be loving and a time to speak the truth harshly. I
think you spend
most of your time in the latter. This saddens me and
others on this
forum. (signed Jonathan) Yesterday you and Izzy went
through
the "poison pen" dialogue below and the day before that you were
talking
about the moderator restraining her. Since I am accused of
such
judgmentalism I would make the same request to you as you made to
Izzy. I
am asking you to show me in my own words (not your opinion) as she
has
done below where and how I have been judgmental toward you. You
also
need to name the "others" who are so saddened by my
judgmentalism.
Judyt
From: "ShieldsFamily" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Okay,
Jonathan, here are quotes from your own poison pen:
Do you realize (even faintly, cmon throw me a bone here) that
being
unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically
anti-Christian?
(That obviously makes me anti-Christian!)
you are horribly educated about the roles America has played.
(Oh,
really!)
My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just
may
be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to
get
you to realize something. (Oh, well if only I had known that I
wouldnt
have been upset about it!)
During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted
that
RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. (And this is a
problem???)
It is bad to confuse our country with God. (Well, DUH!)
It is bad when patriotism keeps us from listening, from being whole.
(Listening to horse apples makes us whole?)
I do not want any one to feel attacked here. (Thats real
news!)
That being said I do understand that when our sacred cows are
being
prodded it is a painful process. (I do not consider resenting insults
to
my Pres or country to be a sacred cow.)
And from the poison pen of your evil twin, Lance, comes the
following:
From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty
stupid
fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more
years,
I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
(?????????????????)
Let's just say that he did well to surround himself with people who
are
smart (unlike himself). (I suppose really smart people cant find
anyone
who are smart to surround themselves with?)
Izzy: 'Religious Spirit' is that to which I was referring. Yes,
you
interpreted me correctly in ascribing that to yourself. (Just
for
defending my President and country???)
the preemptive invasion of Iraq (without a doubt the dumbest move
in
Bush's presidency), (Oh, and how many dumb moves have you
counted?)
Your stupid-loving, horribly educated, antichristian, confused,
unwhole,
horseapple eating friend with the Religious Spirit,
Izzy
Hi Izzy,
This is getting so tiring. The real vs false in the title comes
into
play here. Keep in mind that I did watch the unprovoked assault
(I was
home sick that day and watched it in real time as I happened to have
CNN
on). Keep in mind that I am probably closer distance wise to
the
location of the attack than you are. Keep in mind that 24
innocent
Canadians were killed in the attacks as well. Keep in mind
that I do not
believe that the attack was just against America although it
took place
on American soil; it was against the Western world. Keep
in mind that I
include Canada in that critique.
I never in any way, shape, form or fashion said any of my remarks on
the
incredible tragedy of 9/11 with a smirk. I never said that it
was
anything close to being finallywhat you had coming to you.
Those are
lies you have made up. You are mad at a perception in your
own mind. My
attitude has never approached anything evil, hateful, or
disgusting. You
owe me an apology for these lies. Either back them up
with actual quotes
from me or retract them. As I pointed out time and
time again (with no
response from you did you even read my posts?) my
problem with you is
your rejection of critical thinking regarding the
attacks. To say they
were because of hatred does not answer the
question. It begs another: Why
is the Western world (personified by
America) hated? Then you start
getting somewhere. Am I
dismissing your anger regarding the injustice of
the attacks?
No! It angers me as well. Rather I am saying that 2 and a
half
years later it is time to be reflective and learn from the tragedy.
Jonathan
Just keep in mind, Jonathan, how you might feel if you watched
an
unprovoked assault on your nation with 3000 innocent Canadians killed
by
perverts who just hate you for being Canadians, and then someone said
to
you with a smirk, Well, maybe now you will try to figure out why
they
didnt like you. You finally got what you had coming to
you. You
should expect an angry response to such an evil
attitude. And then you
have the NERVE to accuse me of confusing
America with God and an
unhealthy attitude??? You are a real piece of
liberal work. Izzy
Aye thank you Lance,
However I am afraid that the message will fall on deaf ears or else
you
will be accused of making hateful, disgusting posts with slurs.
Sigh.
Her posts in the last half hour that I have been writing this
continue in
this vein. It is sad.
One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past
4
months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the
more
superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others.
Then when
her countrys actions are called into question her rockets fire
and she
proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of course
justifies it
by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question
America and
asks that God forgive my jealousy). This seems to me to
be a very
unhealthy attitude.
My opinion is as follows:
It is good to love your country.
It is
good to be grateful to your country for the freedoms, opportunities
and
safety it provides.
It is good to pray for and support your leaders.
It
is bad to confuse our country with God.
It is bad to confuse prosperity
with blessing.
It is bad when patriotism keeps us from listening, from
being whole.
It is bad to not be able to listen to criticism.
It is bad
to refuse to listen when our sacred cow is being addressed.
(note that
when I switch to the bad here I intentionally switch from
your to our
in order to highlight that we are all in this together.
I do not want any
one to feel attacked here. You may also replace good
with Christian
and bad with unchristian.)
That being said I do understand that when our sacred cows are
being
prodded it is a painful process. It is often easier to respond
in anger
(I know I have in times when my sacred cows have been poked.
For
example, Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and
illness.
I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and
extremely
hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the
severity. This
is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived
with chronic
illness for the last 16 years. You should see the posts
that I have
drafted in my head in response. The reason they have
never seen the
light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post
them. This
is one of my sacred cows. What I need to do is to
listen to Judy, to
really hear what she is saying without confusing it with
the baggage I
bring with it. For you Izzy perhaps I should
concentrate on the devotion
and love you have for your leaders. I
respect your love for them. What
I question is a love that strikes
back in anger and stops conversation,
fencing me off, refusing to listen
and learn from other peoples
opinions.) What I plead and beg of Izzy
is to listen to what others have
to say, to ask the tough questions we want
to avoid. If it makes you
angry this is often a sign of some sort of
blockage. It is far too easy
to confuse our anger with righteous
anger. This means becoming
vulnerable as the Spirit strips us of our
mis-truths. In this way we can
heal. In this way even our
countries can heal.
Jonathan
Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike
you
it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons
why.
On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended
a
performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer).
When
she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white,
a
massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking:
"there's
a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent
visits
(California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in
your
country.
Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience,
the
Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of
history,
with no nation set above another.
So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please
don't
participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of
God..
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Hughes
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ
-- the real vs false
My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen
to
what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false
but
people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize
something. (By
the way I think it was to get the Western world to
realize something, not
just America).
Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of
your
shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian
when they
travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I
was taught
very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my
backpack or
clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I
received as opposed to
the Americans I traveled with. Do you have any
clue as to what your
country is accountable for? Do you have any
grasp of your countrys
history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark
Ages were actually
dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but
vehemently hate
you?
When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you
or
those that admire and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If
what you
say is true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that
would
mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and
by
faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like. I
doubt
you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush).
For someone who refused to enter into theological debates you sure
are
willing to enter the political arena. Which do you care about
more?
Which is worth discussion more? Is it more important to think
rightly
about your country or about God? Do you realize that God is
not American
(or Canadian or any other nationality)? Do you confuse
Americas
prosperity with Gods blessing? Do you realize (even
faintly, cmon
throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically
pro-American is to be
unapologetically anti-Christian? >From some
of your previous posts
praising your country and its leaders one would
think that you think that
to be American (to agree/accept and live under
the Bill of Rights and the
American dream) is to be Christian.
Enough politics for me. Either change the name of the thread or
actually
begin discussing the Mediation of Christ.
Jonathan
Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be
another
arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that
President
Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter
than those
who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies
(which
are unapologetically pro-American). When you insult President
Bush, you
insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND
considers him
to be an answer to prayer for our nation. Perhaps
Torrance hasnt taught
you any better manners than that? Izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED][
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Lance Muir
From someone who is likely to re-elect a
sincere but pretty stupid
fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader'
for four more years,
I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but
eatin 'em.