From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this) We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and, after "the fall," became like all those who would come after him. Oh my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I am not sure where I am going with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you have it in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came was made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than God).
Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this) We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and, after "the fall," became like all those who would come after him. Oh my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I am not sure where I am going with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you have it in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came was made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than God).
Gen 1:26,27 -- I would argue that this passage makes it clear that "mankind" was created in the image of God -- male and female. The reference is not limited to Adam and Eve and, in fact, it is possible that they were not the only created couple. By the time Cain commits his crime, there are so many people on the earth that he is afraid of them.
jt: We can
surmise or assume the above but all we can know for sure is what the scripture
record reveals and the only examples we have at the beginning are Adam and
Eve.
The fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden indicates to me that Adam was created a mortal being. The fact that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was in the garden is an indication that he already had a nature that was given to sinning -- it just hadn't happened yet.
jt: What would make you assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are you saying that God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God is a physical being rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically looking like God outwardly?
Refer to my comments above. In addition, this "in the image of God" thing does not mean that God is flesh and blood, limited by time and space, with little comparative foresight and subject to a higher power. What does "image of God" mean to you?
jt: The "Image of God" is His spiritual
nature and character. Jesus had it. He said "If you have seen me you
have seen the Father" and we return to the image Adam lost as we allow the
Spirit of God to conform us to the "image of Christ" in this present
age.
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc before "the fall." But where there is no law, there is no definition for sin --- especially character flaws.
jt: Hmmmm! He named all the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required to work and eat by the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part of the curse see Genesis 3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse which was Genesis 2:17 which reads in the original "in the day you eat of it in dying (spiritually) you shall die" (physically).
Naming animals is hard work? I don't know about that, Judy.
jt: It was all
that was required of him at the time. Being driven and having to eat by the
sweat of one's brow is a result of the curse that came upon humanity because of
Adam's fall.
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but that we own a share of personal responsibility ("......and death passed upon all men because all have sinned.")
jt: We share Adam's death mortally because of the fall; however our own personal responsibility as per Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we are born with an inheritance in the first Adam but are responsible for our own sin as Ezekiel 18 makes clear.
Flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Adam's inheritance was nothing apart from the eventual sacrifice of Christ. No man comes to the Father except by me. I am thinking this idea means that God did not create -- could not -- creat a man being that would enjoy eternity without first being partnered in this life with the Son.
jt: If Adam had not fallen there would
never have been a breach between the Father and mankind because they would have
been thinking and saying the same thing - of one heart and one mind with the
Godhead (of which the Son is part) eternally.
Perhaps the point of the Cross beginning with Adam is this: humans were never going to be able to inherit the kingdom of Heaven apart from the process of reconciliation.
jt: The first two humans were living in it - they were in the Garden of God with access to the Tree of Life. Why would they need to inherit it?
Flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The garden was not the Kingdom. I would need some scripture reference or inference on this.
jt: This present world is not the Kingdom of God
either. God is Spirit and so is His Kingdom. Scripture defines
the Kingdom of God as "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans
14:17) and I believe it safe to assume that righteousness, peace, and
joy were going on in the garden before the fall.
It is not that Adam "blew it" for the rest of us. Rather (perhaps) it is that from the beginning, the created being (mankind) was going to need provision from the creator in order to live again in a dimension we call "eternity."
jt: Before Adam "blew it" God had made provision; all of their needs were met and they were living in the eternal dimension.
It is not that Adam "blew it" for the rest of us. Rather (perhaps) it is that from the beginning, the created being (mankind) was going to need provision from the creator in order to live again in a dimension we call "eternity."
jt: Before Adam "blew it" God had made provision; all of their needs were met and they were living in the eternal dimension.
The garden was not spiritual -- it was a physical place -- right???? That is what the text would have us believe.
jt: Yes, it is
possible to be living in the physical dimension and at the same time be living
in eternity, in fact this happens when one is born of the Spirit or born
again.
The scriptures do teach that flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
jt: Fallen flesh and blood will never inherit God's Kingdom; we need to read it in balance and context.
So you are saying that the flesh and blood Adam was in a spiritual place? You are losing me, Judy.
jt: In a
spiritual place spiritually but physically I believe the Garden of Eden was
somewhere in Iraq.
So, the creation process always included the Cross.
jt: No, Jesus was a lamb slain before the foundation of the world only because of God's foreknowledge. He provided a way back, so we have Paradise lost, and Paradise regained in Christ.
I hate this but I have to go. I just got a call from one of my contractors. This paragraph of thought is perhaps the most important, however. Christ did several things which included solving the sin/death problem. Much more on this later. Thanks Judy for your time.
jt: No problem,
I pray you have a peaceful and productive day in the Lord out there....
Until later... 'j'
We - Adam included _ have always fallen short of the glory of God and only in Christ is this solved -- no not "solved" but brought to fulfillment. We -- Adam included -- were never the full stature of Christ apart from His indwelling.
jt: Before the fall Adam was not short of God's glory; he wasn't even deceived like Eve. He chose the other way of his own volition.
And BTW the two trees in the garden were not apples and oranges; they are two different kinds of wisdom. The wisdom from above which is pure peaceable and full of good fruit; and the other kind which is earthly, sensual, and demonic. Adam was walking in the former until he chose the latter bu default. We are also presented with the same choice daily.
judyt
