Re: [TruthTalk] Original Sin

[Judy Taylor]

 

 

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:43:08 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John in bold print  -  we will have to clean this up next time around, I think. 

n a message dated 2/10/2005 6:26:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:                            

The first Adam chose to do it without any propensity.

No he didn't.   One is tempted and then sin occurs.  

Eve was deceived, for Adam it was a rational choice; he chose to disobey.

Are you saying that Eve had a "fallen nature,"  not Adam?  If not, why on earth would you make such a distinction? 

No, I'm saying both of them were made in God's image which is pure, holy, and unblemished.

 

Where do you draw the line on this "image of God thing.  He is not only pure, holy and unblemished, He is also all powerful, omnipresent, and most important to our discussion  -   not capable of sinning. 

 

jt: His image did not make them Creators also. His image is being primarily spirit with His nature and character. 

 

Eve took the bait and became deceived because she listened to the wrong voice. 

 

If Eve were in the image of God as according to you,  she COULDN'T have "[taken] the bait."  

 

jt: Sure she could and she did. She was deceived; see above for His image. They were still His creation, He didn't make

them Gods.  They were in His image just like Jesus came to earth and took our likeness upon Himself.

 

Adam chose to go down with her rather than obey God and take a stand for righteousness.

 

Adam had a choice God does not.   Adam and Eve justified what they were about to do;  God is not capable of such activity.   Not capable. 

 

jt: Adam justified himself by blaming the woman "AFTER THE ACT" Also Adam was not God.  Being made in God's "image and likeness" does not make him divine any more than Jesus being made in our "image and likeness" makes Him a sinner. 

 

So whereas they had been naked and unashamed before God in the garden, they were now full of guilt and shame and trying to hide and cover themselves.
 
He sinned exactly like all of us do.   His nature was the same.  

 

jt: His nature was NOT the same as ours.  Being made in the likeness of something is not exactly cloning/replicating the original.

So Jesus was born full of guilt and shame with the propensity to blame others, point the finger, and hide from God ?  

 

of course not  "propensity" you say  -  then I must agree

 

jt: So you claim Jesus was born with "an innate inclination or tendency toward sin?"  If this is so then the wise men who came to worship Him were fooled, and the angels along with Simeon and Anna were false prophets because they all called Him Holy. 

 

According to the gospel of JD maybe but not according to God. In creation God said it was "very good" He did not create a "fallen Adam" 

 

Sure He did and I have no problem admitting this because the act of human creation did not end on the day God made man.    Man was created a free moral agent  something God is not.    Your argument above is taken from the pages of the RCC and its teachings on original sin.  

 

jt: No my argument is taken from the Bible John.  Where do you get the idea God is not free to do whatever He wants? When you are God who is there to tell you NO? He does exactly what He wants.

Understand that your entire argument here is a combination of two things: a put down of my argument (which is completely unnecessary but OK  -  obviously something you think you must do)  and the subtle assertion that your logic on the matter is of spirit-filled proportions. 
 
John how is it you never give me a well thought out argument from scripture -

 

a very scriptural argument is coming in this post but you will ignore it and  work to carry on this discussion without dealing with issues I bring up   And what, pray tell, is ad hominem in my post to you?   

 

jt: Self fulfilling prophecy John?

 

and why does it always turn personal (ad hominem) at some point? My argument has nothing to do with putting you or anyone else down;

 

Judy, you simply do not write without put downs.   Does not happen.   

 

jt: Now you are, in effect (sarcasm), calling me a liar.

 

I just happen to believe that you are wrong. I am making no assertions about anyone's logic my own included.

And I say "your logic on the matter" because you offer nothing else -  simply "logic."  No scripture.  Just a reasoned position.  In your mind,  Judy cannot imagine a god who creates with anything less than perfection in mind.   Therefore, Adam HAD to be perfect  --  created with no capacity for sin. 

 

jt: No John, it's the wisdom of God and if you are not able to receive it you don't understand, righteousness, sin, and/or many other issues in God's Word. I don't care how long you've been in the ministry. 

If you want chapter and verse John then I will look them up for you when I get a spare moment. 

 

Do that, Judy.  I always want scripture. 

 

God's creation was good and man was created (rather than procreated) in His image which is pure, holy, and separate from sinners.  For some reason you have embraced a gospel that teaches that God's image is less than pure and holy both at the beginning in the Godhead and later in the person of Jesus. 

 

You have missed the point, entirely.  I read the Genesis account, make note of what happened, in detail, immediately prior to the actual eating of the forbidden fruit, and draw my conclusions.   About as scriptural as one can get.      What we --  I guess I should say "I"  --   what I see IN THE RECORD of Adam and Eve up until the time of the sin event is the character of two individuals AS THEY WERE CREATED. 

 

jt: Yeah! innocent and in fellowship with God the Father.  BTW what do you see happening in detail immediately prior to the actual eating of the forbidden fruit that is ground for your conclusions John?
 
You see, "capacity for sin" and "fallen nature" are the same in my mind.  

 

jt: Like the word propensity? I'd say they had the propensity and character traits of their Father God.

 

As we stand, face to face with the creation circumstance, we see it very differently.   You see it as a completed task, on every level and I do not.   The "day" in the Genesis record is not a 24 hour period of time, if for no other reason than the fact that it would never take God 24 hours to say "let there be light."  

Capacity for sin and fallen nature are NOT the same John.  Adam was created in God's likeness - Fallen mankind is the seed of satan (and in his likeness) the seed of the woman is Christ (God's likeness).  I don't know why you would not think of a day as 24hrs when Genesis 1:5 says clearly "and God called the light day, and the darkness He called night.  And there was evening and there was morning, one day" (or the first day).  How could it be more clear? 

 

Creation is a narrative account of the act of creation by God. The purpose of the creation story was the establishment of the 7th day rest.   Moses is not arguing creation  -  he is arguing 7th day rest.    If he were arguing for creation, itself  (which he undoubtedly believed) he would have given more detail.   But, again, that was not the purpose of his narration  --  only the establishment of the 7th day rest.  And Moses has given ample explanation for this purpose.  

 

jt: From where do you get to judge the motivation of Moses? He was a servant who obeyed God the Father. He wrote down what he was given; so we know what is revealed and the hidden things belong to God.  I happen to think Genesis is a lot more important than the Sabbath day only.

 
More than that, not a single creation [primary] event was completed on the same "day" it was presented.   A careful reading of the text will varify this.  

 

jt: You would have to read this into the text and you are being "too careful" John because God can use any timeframe he wants to and none of us were there were we?

 

I have no idea what your point is, here.   My point is simple:  what He began on one was completed on another day  --   a clear narrative account of creation process.     

 

 No it wouldn't take God the Word 24hrs to make a statement and you don't know how long it took God the Spirit to bring it to pass do you? We can only know what has been revealed, the secret things belong to the Lord.    
 
Continued later...