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One more word, David: When I said that perhaps you
were indeed more righteous, I meant it. You may well be far ahead of me
on many matters of behaviour. But you alternate between harshness and
condescension in the way you talk to other believers on TT, which you do not
seem to see. I imagine there must still be an appreciable gap between you
and perfection, yet I don't hear any sorrow or longing over that.
But perhaps if I encountered you in person, I would see and hear you
differently.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:03
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] More wisdom from
Dallas Willard
Hi David,
1. Why "flux": As has already been
established ad nauseam, I disagree with you about biblical
interpretation: I think it happens, and you don't. (Or is it that you think
you always interpret aright? I forget.) You think it's possible to be
certain about most everything, and I don't. You think that's the point,
and I don't. I sometimes change my mind, and yours is
immutable.
2. Teachings of men on par with HS:
Certainly not those of men. (Oh--did you mean "people"?) But seriously:
see #1.
3. Comparing self with others:
I acknowledge this was not explicit in your post. Sorry. I
inferred from your not wanting to be Caroline on judgment day that you
preferred to be yourself on that occasion, as you would fare better. If that's
not the case, who would you like to be? And as for such a concept
never entering your mind: "empty words". It is abundantly clear from many of
your posts that you consider yourself more righteous than those you are
addressing. And perhaps you are, after all. Otherwise you would be busy
taking logs out of your eyes.
4. Extremely embarrassed to come before the Lord
and have this brought up: (a) We are before the Lord at all
times. (b) Do you really think he is logging incidents and
shelving the ledger each time in order to bring it all up
later? Forgive me, David, but your god sounds very much like the
Accuser! God's agenda in saving us is to change us into the people he
wants--as soon as possible. Throughout our lives, God draws our attention
to things appropriate to our stage, and may take startling measures to do so
when necessary (see various posts of Caroline's). The rest of what you
say, about confessing and repenting, seems to suggest you agree with
this. Why would he be saving it up in order to nail us with it? See
#1. (c) There is absolutely no difference between "#($&%" and
"You espouse a doctrine of demons" or "You are of your father the
devil". The latter are just "good KJV biblical lingo". Besides, she
wasn't saying it. She was quoting it. :-)
5. Joking/unconcerned about sin: No one
here is. It's just that you regularly mis-hear people. If it "seems" to
you that believing we are already saved is making us apathetic, all
I can say is, things are simply not what they seem to you. Besides, as to
already being saved, and your difficulty hearing people: have you noticed
John's posts about "have been saved", "are being saved", "will be saved", and
what these mean, and what they entail for our lives? I won't repeat
him.
6. Confessing, standard, etc.: our
level of mutual intimacy does not permit me to go into detail, David, about
the sins I confess. In any case, for purposes of the statements TTers have
been making about remaining sinful and being acceptable to God, it is not
about which sins or how many. If I am not completely sinless, I am sinful.
Should I expect growth and change in specific areas? Of course; I am being
saved, after all. Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen fast enough to
satisfy you? I do not care. Does it happen as a result of you telling me God
is going to lay charges against me? No.
7. Getting out of jail free: Actually,
David, that is what it is all about. We aren't even on
parole. Another has served our time and cleared our record.
That's all the time and ink I want to spend on
that.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 11:44
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] More wisdom from Dallas
Willard
> Debbie wrote:
>> ... I do believe I am accountable to God
for how
>> I live, but I admit that on the question of
exactly
>> when and how (and how often?) I will be called
>>
to account, my thinking is in flux.
>
> The Bible has hundreds of
passages about the coming judgment. Why would you
> be in flux
regarding this question? Do you think that perhaps you might put
> the teachings of men on the same level as the Holy
Scriptures?
>
> Debbie wrote:
>> My charge of ignorance
had to do with your statement
>> about Caroline. Assuming your
version of how this calling
>> to account will occur, how could you
possibly know whether
>> you would not want to be "in Caroline's
shoes", as it were,
>> on that occasion? What do you know of her
works, or how
>> they compare with yours??? That's where I thought
you were
>> proceeding on ignorance.
>
> How her works
compare with mine? Where did that come from? Such a concept
> should never enter our minds. The only one we should compare
ourselves with
> is Jesus Christ. When we believe upon him, and
make him our Lord, then our
> life no longer becomes our own. We
are committed to living as he lived, and
> if anything in our life is
not according to him, we should repent (change
> our mind), and turn
back toward him.
>
> My comment about being her before the
judgment seat of Christ had to do with
> what she said on this
forum. Surely you know that each of us will give
> account to the
Lord for every word we type in this forum. Caroline joked
> about
the judgment of hell fire that God brings upon the unbelievers. She
> described warnings about the judgment of hell as "#($&%^ you guys
(in good
> KJV biblical lingo)." I would be extremely embarassed
to come before the
> Lord and have this brought up, and I was
expressing such to her, hoping that
> she will reconsider her cavalier
attitude toward the judgment of God.
>
> Debbie
wrote:
>> Caroline, John, and (less often) I have numerous
times
>> tried to make clear that our complete and
unqualified
>> reliance on God's grace and mercy in spite of our
sin
>> does not mean that we are cavalier about such sin
or
>> our behaviour. On the contrary ... I know from my
own
>> experience that this reliance on God's unconditional
love
>> is just what nourishes my desire to be conformed to
his
>> image, and is what produces that conformity over time.
>
> Empty words. It is easy to claim that you are concerned about
sin, but when
> people joke around about it, that indicates something
else entirely.
> Furthermore, since you mention John, he professes to
continue in sin and
> teaches that the tension created by not wanting
to sin but sinning anyway is
> what gives him indication that he is
saved! It is very clear to me that
> your theology has caused
many like John not only to be unconcerned about his
> own sin, but
unconcerned about the sins of others. How can we watch our
>
neighbors sin, knowing that such actions bring forth the wrath of God, and
> stay silent? It seems to me that a theology that teaches all
are already
> saved in Christ whether they believe or not contributes
to such apathy
> toward sin gaining ground. More than that, it
actually has caused some,
> like Caroline, to jest about it!
>
> Debbie wrote:
>> P.S.: I started a post some time ago, in
response to one
>> of yours, which I never sent. It dared to suggest
that perhaps
>> the people who continue to acknowledge sin in our
lives do
>> so because we actually look to a higher standard of
obedience
>> than you do.
>
> Well, let's talk specifics
then. First, how often do you confess sins? Do
> you
confess sins every day, every week, every month, what? What kind of
> sins are you confessing? Are you confessing getting angry
without a cause,
> impure thoughts, stealing from someone, coveting,
fornicating, drunkenness,
> what? Are you confessing not helping
your neighbor? Let's get specific and
> examine this thing.
If my standard of obedience is too low, then I will
> certainly confess
my sin of having this too low of a standard right away and
>
repent. I hope you understand that I am not against confession and
> repentance. I am against people using confession as a "get out
of jail free
> card" that would enable them to continue in sin.
When we acknowledge our
> sin, we need to change our mind about it and
start living right. That means
> you would not expect to be
confessing that particular sin again, right?
>
> By the way, I
taught at church this last Wednesday night on Eternal
> Judgment.
I connected it to holiness at the end of my homily, exhorting the
>
believers to put away all sin and be conscious of the Biblical fact that
> they will stand before Christ on the day of Judgment, whether they be
> Christian or not a Christian, and they will be judged by the works
they have
> done. I received a lot of feedback after the service
was over, and one
> woman said to me, "I really needed to hear
that. I'm realizing that I need
> to ask for forgiveness every
day." Now, I have no problem with this
> response. Her
awareness of her shortcomings is increased by hearing God's
> standard
of holiness. However, even though I don't have a problem with her
> increase of confession and asking forgiveness, I do hope that she
moves away
> from asking forgiveness to repenting of her sins and
having a clear
> conscience. In other words, I want her to walk
in holiness, walk in the
> Spirit, not just come to the realization
that her behavior falls short of
> God's glory. First there is
confession and repentance, then there is faith
> toward God and walking
in the Spirit.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with
grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every
man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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