----- Original Message -----
Sent: May 30, 2005 05:04
Subject: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John
on the Law and the Spirit
JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer to both
questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the works (obedience) of
the Law. I think "He" is God, but I will give you Paul for the sake of
argument -- How did Paul provide you with the Spirit and the
working of miracles -- through the works of the Law or by the
hearing with faith. My point is the same.
jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but He works
through men.
JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my point. The fact
is that the Spirit and miracles were because of faith, not law.
Can you understand how I might believe this, in view of the fact that I am
quoting scripture?
jt: You still can't escape the "obedience" factor JD
because there is an obedience of faith ie "By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8)
Jesus gives salvation to all them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the
end be of them that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting
scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that clinging to this
incarnational thing is folly.
JD: They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy
and yet, Paul saw only danger in their return to the law.
These folk are converted Gentiles. They are not Jews. Yet,
there are those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the Law.
jt: How can you be sure they were all
Gentiles
JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2)
jt: Paul makes a point here, he is not specifically
referring to them ... all we know for sure is that they lived in Galatia. The
Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact they stirred up trouble everywhere Paul
went giving him a reputation. They taught that it was Jesus plus the
Levitical system in part even without a temple; these ppl had reverted back to
Judaism and Galatians 3:3 explains his meaning "Are you so foolish? having
begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is
between flesh and spirit, rather than God's Law and Christ.
JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were Gentiles, but it
was probably a Gentile congregation, for the most part. The "flesh"
in this passage is the Law. Context Judy, context. They had the
power -- and Paul is saying, do not choose law over
Spirit.
jt: No, he exhorts them
to get out of the flesh and back into walking after the Spirit, this says
nothing about the Law.
JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29. This is what it says to
me: you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND HER CHILDREN
(24-25). Jerusalem is the free woman, and Isaac is a fellow child of the
promise --- not Hagar and her children.
Pay special
attention to verses 28 and 29 ??? And you brethren, like Isaac,
are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according
to the flesh (Hagar?s children ? of the Law) and persecuted himn who was born
according to the Spirit, so it is now, also.
jt: There was no law when Ishmael and Isaac were born
JD; they were both sons of Abraham after natural generation, the difference
between them was spiritual. Isaac was the child of promise
(faith). Ishmael was the product of the flesh trying to fulfill the
promise of God. They believed God but tried to do it in their own
strength just like Moses when he killed the Egyptian. He knew God wanted
him to lead but he didn't wait upon God's timing. The flesh is forever
running out there trying to look good and do good things for
God.
JD: Look again to 5:16,17: For the flesh sets
its desire against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are
in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things you please
(compare Romans 7:14ff). But, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not
under the Law.
jt: You are making my point JD. Romans 7
teaches that the only time we are not under the law is when we are married to
another (Christ) and we serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the
oldness of the letter. "What shall we say then, is the law sin?" God forbid.
Nay, I had not known sin but by the law; for I had not known lust except the
law had said "Thou shalt not covet"
JD: Or, try 6:12-13: Those who desire to make a good showing in
the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply that they may not be
persecuted for the cross of Christ. For those who are circumcised do not
even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised, that
they may boast in your flesh.?
jt: Sure, they were into nickels, noses, and numbers
which is the same as making a good show after the flesh. It's happening
all the time.
JD: Nothing? !! The whole book is about the
Law and foolishness of seeking to live under its bondage --
something spirit-filled Galatians are encouraged to reject. The whole
book, Judy.
jt: I don't agree JD; the second
to last chapter of the book of Galatians Chapter
5 contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit. He says
nothing at all about God's Law, nothing!!!!
JD: Sure it does: For the fruit of the Spirit is love joy ??against
such things there is no law
jt: Yes and Jesus (born under the Law) made it a
point to teach that love fulfills the law so when we "walk after the Spirit"
we will be producing the fruit of the Spirit and this is what it will look
like. It's all about us and our heart attitude because when we walk in
and after the flesh we will be overcome rather than
"overcomers"
JD: Your gospel would tell these folks, ?Use the
power of the indweeling that you have received, to fulfill the
Law. Do not reject what God has given !! Embrace it and live
it out in the power of the Holy Ghost.? None of that is found in the
letter - yet this is your message. Snip snip,
Judy.
jt: I am not antinomian like you JD but the
gospel I believe and follow would not tell these ppl anything of the
sort;
lawless ppl are not living by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are
off on their own, doing their own thing and what's more we don't "use" God, we
either do things His way or we are just out there deceived.
jt: I don't think so JD. They had been
"bewitched" and had moved from faith to fear so Paul was trying to
get them
back on track. They wouldn't be working any
miracles in that condition; they needed to repent and return to their first
works.
JD: The Galatians were not lawless. They were filled by the Spirit,
workers of miracles, children of God on the verge of binding themselves to the
Old Law.
jt: What grounds do you have for the
above?? Paul never ever bad mouths God's Law.
In fact he writes to the Church at Corinth that he is "Not
without the law to God but under the law
to Christ" (1 Cor 9:21) What about that?
JD: The really bad news in all this is found in this fact: to be
justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.
jt: Well noone in their right mind (the mind of
Christ) would do that, in fact Gentiles like us were mostly totally
ignorant of God's Law when we came to Christ. But hey, if this Law is so
obsolete - then why does God (under the New Covenant) write it on our hearts?
(see Jeremiah & Hebrews). Just walking in the flesh while
trying to be good "religious" folk is
t he same thing because there is no
faith in that either. The Levitical system is finished and gone ... but
trusing in the works of the flesh puts us under the same curse.
JD: Opinions of man mixed with a Bible. I need b, c and v for this
Levitical Law thing??..especially in view of the
fact that Paul contrasts
Issac and Mount Sinai. Keep the law, if you will DM --
as for me and my house, we will
serve the Lord. The Bishop
jt: If any man or even an angel from heaven come with
another gospel "let him be accursed"; actually it is impossible to be lawless
and ATST serve the Lord JD. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Also if you are trusting in the "incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not
any better off ...
JD: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect of the
Christ in my (our) life. To think otherwise is heretical at best, and
heretical in the lest.
jt: According to
who? I don't see Paul preaching or teaching that doctrine anywhere in
Acts or the Epistles.
Are you denying this
statement: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued
effect of the Christ in my (our) life, ?
jt:
Yes; Paul preached the cross and it is the cross that is the offense which
will bring persecution because the flesh does not like to be confronted with
it's sad and sorry state. jt
