The Bible doesn't say anything about spiritual death. That is something
you are adding. Why don't you treat yourself with the scrutiny you exact on
others? Why don't you say what the Bible says?
Whom was Jesus calling when he said, "Follow me,
and let the dead bury their own dead"? Do you deny that he was calling this
person to follow him?
jt: He said this to one of his
disciples - they are the ones who travelled with him for 3 1/2yrs; he did send
out the 70 to do the work of the ministry but ppl were not called and invited
to His Kingdom until the Promise was sent on the day of Pentecost because the
covenant was not ratified until there was a death.
And were only certain Jews supposed to love
God with all their hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and the rest
were exempt? What do you suppose this Jew was not doing when he refused
to follow God's Son? You don't have to answer these questions, Judy; they are
rhetorical: one of those confusing linguistic constructs. IN OTHER WORDS, they
are so obvious as to not require answers.
jt: They are only obvious in your mind
Bill. Loving God under the Old Covenant was obeying the law of Moses.
The ministry of the Son was teaching about and introducing a "New and Living
Way" available to them upon his death. I
would like to point out that the same _expression_ is used in the parable of the
Prodigal Son who was dead in the pigpen and returned to life after a change of
heart (now is alive). It is also used in Ephesians 2:1 and in 1 Timothy
5:6.
Judy, you are the one who made a big issue out of distinguishing
things before the cross and after the cross.
jt: Things - having to do with covenants
Bill. Before the cross it was through Moses and then it changed. Do you
have a problem with this??
I simply satisfied your criterion and asked questions
pertaining to a time prior to the cross. Yes, "dead" is used of people on both
sides of the cross. However after the cross it is used in a past tense, i.e,
you were dead.
jt: More accurately "after the New
Birth" In Ephesians 2:1 Paul is addressing the church. the cross
in and of itself did not change the hearts of those who would not receive
God's Word. The ones who received the power to become sons of God (John
1:12) are the ones who "received Him"
The cross stands as that which gave them life. Bill
jt: The cross always represents death.
judyt
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:17
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death
I have not one time claimed that Jesus'
statement pertained to physically dead people burying the dead. This is
your confusion, Judy -- not mine. If you are so base as to draw that
conclusion, how are you competent to draw any conclusions?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 2:57
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death
Mar 12.30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all
your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your
strength.' This is the first commandment.
I told Izzy that I thought there was a spiritual
element included in Jesus' statement: "Follow me, and let the dead bury
their own dead." But I also told her that I thought it was not just
directed at the spirit aspect of personhood: "those who reject Christ
are doing so with their entire being -- mind, body, soul, and
spirit." To which Judy responded with ridicule,
implying instead that Jesus' statement was only in reference
to the spiritual aspect, i.e., it was a reference to spiritual death and
nothing else.*
jt: Bill, I don't see it as
ridicule to say what the Bible says. There is no way a physically
dead person can get out there and dig a hole in order to bury another
physically dead person now is there? In scripture this
concept of death is that of being
separated from God because of sin which as I have been saying is what
happened to A&E in the garden. Anything else is
confusion.
Judy, if first
century Jews prior to the cross were called to love God with all
their hearts, souls, minds, and strength, what do you suppose they were
not doing when they refused to follow his Son?
jt: Only
disciples were being called to follow the son at this point (Matt 8:22,
Luke 9:60) - Also I would
like to point out that the same _expression_ is used in the parable of the
Prodigal Son who was dead in the pigpen and returned to life after a
change of heart (now is alive). It is also used in Ephesians 2:1
and in 1 Timothy 5:6.
judyt
Bill
* When He says "death" he means
"death" and since the death Adam experienced that day was not physical,
nor was it alzheimers (brain or soul death). What do you
suppose it was? ... The dead burying their dead is not speaking of
physical or soulish death since they were able to dig a hole and had
presence of mind enough not to let a dead body just lay
around.
