Got pay ???
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:45:31 -0600
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
The prison is in lock-down today -- some kind of weapons violation; hence no one goes in and no one comes out. And so, for those who may be wondering, I am at home for the time being and not at work.
Bill wrote > The cross stands as that which gave them life.
jt: The cross always represents death. judyt
Judy, you are the one who is constantly ridiculing others for referring to the Christ event (the life, death, resurrection, and ascension) rather than to "the cross." If I had said instead that the Christ event stands as that which gave them life, what would your response have been? You are being ridiculous.
jt: I try to exact the same scrutiny on myself and I want to say what the Bible says. the 2nd death is described in Revelation 21:8 and is different from what Jesus speaks of in Luke 9:60.
Judy, I've already clarified this. Why the obstinance? Once again, AND PLEASE TRY TO FOLLOW ALONG WITH ME, I am not distinguishing between the first death and the second death as mentioned in Revelation. Let go of that fallacious idea. I am distinguishing between the two deaths mentioned in Jesus' statement: the first time he uses the word "dead" and the second time he uses the word "dead." The first reference to "dead" has to be understood as speaking to a different situation than the second reference to "dead." The first reference is a metaphor; the second reference is literal. You plug in "spiritual" to satisfy the metaphor, as did Augustine and many since him. BUT unlike Augustine, you then treat "spiritual death" itself as a metaphor and not as a literal spiritual death. I will quote you again: "This does not mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the last day." Hence, by your own definit
ion you treat "spiritual death" as a metaphor which speaks to something else. Now, you don't have to admit this, but if you won't, why don't you just drop it? You are making a fool of yourself.
Please just stop being so obstinate about this -- either that or go ahead and embrace Augustine's position and treat your doctrine of spiritual death in the same way as he: that spiritual death means that "their" spirit is literally dead. Then at least you will not have to concede that spiritual death is metaphorical of something else. If you won't do this, then do whatever you want: just leave my comments completely out of your considerations.
Bill
----- Original Message -----From: Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:23 AMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathOn Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:56:22 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:jt: Bill, I don't see it as ridicule to say what the Bible says.The Bible doesn't say anything about spiritual death. That is something you are adding. Why don't you treat yourself with the scrutiny you exact on others? Why don't you say what the Bible says?jt: I try to exact the same scrutiny on myself and I want to say what the Bible says. the 2nd death is described in Revelation 21:8 and is different from what Jesus speaks of in Luke 9:60. Only disciples were being called to follow the son at this point (Matt 8:22, Luke 9:60) -Whom was Jesus calling when he said, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead"? Do you deny that he was calling this person to follow him?jt: He said this to one of his disciples - they are the ones who travelled with him for 3 1/2yrs; he did send out the 70 to do the work of the ministry but ppl were not called and invited to His Kingdom until the Promise was sent on the day of Pentecost because the covenant was not ratified until there was a death.And were only certain Jews supposed to love God with all their hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and the rest were exempt? What do you suppose this Jew was not doing when he refused to follow God's Son? You don't have to answer these questions, Judy; they are rhetorical: one of those confusing linguistic constructs. IN OTHER WORDS, they are so obvious as to not require answers.jt: They are only obvious in your mind Bill. Loving God under the Old Covenant was obeying the law of Moses. The ministry of the Son was teaching about and introducing a "New and Living Way" available to them upon his death. I would like to point out that the same _expression_ is used in the parable of the Prodigal Son who was dead in the pigpen and returned to life after a change of heart (now is alive). It is also used in Ephesians 2:1 and in 1 Timothy 5:6.Judy, you are the one who made a big issue out of distinguishing things before the cross and after the cross.jt: Things - having to do with covenants Bill. Before the cross it was through Moses and then it changed. Do you have a problem with this??I simply satisfied your criterion and asked questions pertaining to a time prior to the cross. Yes, "dead" is used of people on both sides of the cross. However after the cross it is used in a past tense, i.e, you were dead.jt: More accurately "after the New Birth" In Ephesians 2:1 Paul is addressing the church. the cross in and of itself did not change the hearts of those who would not receive God's Word. The ones who received the power to become sons of God (John 1:12) are the ones who "received Him"The cross stands as that which gave them life. Billjt: The cross always represents death. judyt----- Original Message -----From: Bill TaylorSent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:17 AMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathI have not one time claimed that Jesus' statement pertained to physically dead people burying the dead. This is your confusion, Judy -- not mine. If you are so base as to draw that conclusion, how are you competent to draw any conclusions?Bill----- Original Message -----From: Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 2:57 AMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual deathOn Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:13:18 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:Mar 12.30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.I told Izzy that I thought there was a spiritual element included in Jesus' statement: "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead." But I also told her that I thought it was not just directed at the spirit aspect of personhood: "those who reject Christ are doing so with their entire being -- mind, body, soul, and spirit." To which Judy responded with ridicule, implying instead that Jesus' statement was only in reference to the spiritual aspect, i.e., it was a reference to spiritual death and nothing else.*jt: Bill, I don't see it as ridicule to say what the Bible says. There is no way a physically dead person can get out there and dig a hole in order to bury another physically dead person now is there? In scripture this concept of death is that of being separated from God because of sin which as I have been saying is what happened to A&E in the garden. Anything else is confusion.Judy, if first century Jews prior to the cross were called to love God with all their hearts, souls, minds, and strength, what do you suppose they were not doing when they refused to follow his Son?jt: Only disciples were being called to follow the son at this point (Matt 8:22, Luke 9:60) - Also I would like to point out that the same _expression_ is used in the parable of the Prodigal Son who was dead in the pigpen and returned to life after a change of heart (now is alive). It is also used in Ephesians 2:1 and in 1 Timothy 5:6.judytBill* When He says "death" he means "death" and since the death Adam experienced that day was not physical, nor was it alzheimers (brain or soul death). What do you suppose it was? ... The dead burying their dead is not speaking of physical or soulish death since they were able to dig a hole and had presence of mind enough not to let a dead body just lay around.
