DAVEH: Do you deny that Moses saw God, Kevin?
Kevin Deegan wrote:
Moses said EX 33 show me
thy glory....And he said, I will make all my goodness
pass before thee
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the
heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:31And God saw every thing that he
had made, and, behold, it was very good.
PS 97:6 The heavens declare his
righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
PS 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the
firmament sheweth his handywork.
Moses was an eyewitness of God's glory
Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dave,
Simply put, in Moses 1:2, PoGP, if Moses did not see god's "face" (as
"face"
described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could
look and
live), then the statement about him enduring it is unnecessary, because
we
know that men can gaze upon whatever form god chooses to present
himself,
and endure, except whatever he called his "face" on Sainai. The
implication
in Moses 1:2 is that Moses should not have endured viewing God, but
did,
thus, that he was seeing god's "face". If moses did not see god's face
in
Moses 1:2, then enduring that feat was no big deal for moses...hardly
worth
being called out. On the other hand, if he was seeing god's face in
Moses
1:2 and endured it, then Moses 1:2 is contradicting scripture.
Furthermore, if god were a man, why would he not appear as a man every
time
he presents himself? Why a different form every time, but never
directly as
a man? The use of body parts to describe his image on Sinai is not
unreasonable since these are certainly the terms Moses was familiar
with,
and the ones he obviously chose to describe the experience.
As far as "similitude", it does not mean an exact replica, or the thing
itself. Furthermore, it refers directly to whatever form is present. If
god
shows himself as a burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning
bush.
Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why would he have to
write
another book, repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah?
I am done with this topic. I have stated my position. Fini. We are not
destined to agree, and that is okay with me. Get you last shot in,
then...
on to my second question...how the mormon god, who is "without
beginning of
days" is also a created being, thus, with a finite beginning.
Perry
>From: Dave Hansen
>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the
PoGP!
>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07 -0800
>
>*I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.*
>
>DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to see his body, but not his
face.
> That is why he said to Moses......
>
>*[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back
parts_:
>but my face shall not be seen*. Ex 33
>
>.........Do you deny that Moses saw God's back parts? If not, then
it is
>clearly obvious that Moses saw God. (And if you do deny it, then it
would
>seem you are contradicting the Bible.) That does not mean he didn't
*also
>*see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or column of smoke.
Sure...he saw
>those things too. But most important to this discussion....Moses
>*literally *saw God. If you wish to i gnore that simple fact Perry,
that is
>your privilege. I see it as denying the word of God to do so
though.
>Furthermore, I can't believe there would be any Bible believing
Christian
>TTer who would agree with you. Am I wrong?
> _*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and
survived
>(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_
>
> That's pure nonsense, Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as
>saying.......
>
>/*MOS 1:2 And _he saw God face to face_, and he talked with him,
and the
>glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*/
>
>..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2) would bother you, and
yet you
>apparently have no problem with the Bible when it says in Num
14.......
>
>*[14] And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for
they have
>heard that thou LORD art among this people, that _thou LORD art
seen face
>to face_, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou
goest before
>them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire
by
>night.*
>
>..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses /_saw God face to
face_/,
>and the Bible tells us that the Lord has been *_seen face to
face_*....then
>*who *do you suppose saw the Lord IF it was not Moses? FWIW....I do
not
>believe that the phrase /_saw God face to face_/ or the phrase
*_seen face
>to face_* literally means in either case that God's face was seen.
I have
>had experiences where I've stood face to face with people, and have
not
>actually looked at their faces, but rather have handed them
something (such
>as money) or received something from them (such as a coupon)
without
>glancing upward to see their actual face. But....I did see their
bodies,
>or parts thereof.
>
>/*none of the verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this
aspect of
>God's appearance anyway.
>
> */Again........that is nonsense, Perry. I previously quoted Num
>12.......
>
>*[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not
in dark
>speeches; and _the similitude of the LORD shall he behold_:
wherefore then
>were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? *
>
> Why do you think the the term *_similitude_* was used, Perry? How
>else do you suppose they would say that Moses actually *saw *God,
instead
>of just a burning bush, pillar of fire or column of smoke? The term
>*_similitude_* was expressly used to prevent naysayers from saying
that
>Moses did /not really/ see God. Even so....it is sadly obvious that
>contrary to the Bible, those naysayers even today continue to claim
Moses
>did not see God.
>
>_/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY
man,
>could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof
that
>the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
>
> I never claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you would think
that
>is a contradiction boggles the mind.
>
>*_/I don't "still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know"
it
>does./_*
>
> The contradiction is in your mind, Perry. And, your assumption
that
>God cannot be seen is in error, and non Biblical. You have been
shown just
>a few Biblical passages that contradict your theory, Perry. (There
are
>others as well, but there is little reason to discuss them since
you have
>rejected the obvious ones.)
>
> I have been accused of being stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs,
>Perry....but you certainly have overshadowed me this time. It is
overtly
>obvious that you have no desire to understand the truth of this
matter as
>found in the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the Bible
>explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and as such
it must
>be from Satan........do you disagree?
>
>*How about my second question, Dave. *
>
> What's the point of going on to the second question, Perry? When I
>show you specific Bible passages that clearly refute your erroneous
>theories, and you just continue to disbelieve the Bible. Anything I
would
>try to explain to you from LDS passages would be less productive
than
>talking to a brick.
>
>Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>
>>>Dave wrote:
>>> After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do
you still
>>>think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts
the Bible?
>>
>>
>>*I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to
see.* Was it a
>>burning bush? A glowing mass? A pillar of fir e? A column of
Smoke? You
>>see, God appeared however he wished to appear to Moses. It
appears to have
>>been different each time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it
was that god
>>wanted him to see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God
certainly took a
>>form that moses could "see". However, on Sinai there was an
aspect of this
>>appearance upon which no man could look and live. God called
this his
>>"face". He protected moses from gazing upon this aspect of his
appearance,
>>so it reasonable to believe that in future meetings Moses did
not see
>>god's "face" or he would have died as the boble states.
>>
>>_*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and
survived
>>(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_ And,
/*none of the
>>verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of God's
appearance
>>anyway. */
>>
>>Maybe the mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and,
since you
>>think the mormon god is a man, he must have a literal "face")
and survive,
>>but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses,
nor ANY
>>man, could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet
more proof
>>that the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
>>
>>Thanks for the effort you put into this, Dave, but *_/I don't
"still
>>think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it does./_* I
am sorry
>>that your mormon faith causes you not to be able to see this.
>>
>>------------------------
>>
>>*How about my second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so
you do not
>>have to look it up: *
>>
>>It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was once a man (from
Kolob) who
>>was a created being (if not as a man, at least created as a
spirit). Yet,
>>in the PoGP (one of your standard works consisting of
revelation to JS,
>>right?) I find the following, which appears to say that the
mormon god had
>>no beginning ("without beginning of days"):
>>
>>MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord
God
>>Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of
days or
>>end of years; and is not this endless?
>>
>>Now, how is it that the mormon god had a beginning, yet is
"without
>>beginning of days"?
>>
>>Thank you in advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain this
to me.
>>
>>Perry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Dave Hansen
>>>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>>>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in
the PoGP!
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800
>>>
>>>DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's look what
happened to him
>>>in Ex 33...
>>>
>>>*[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man
speaketh unto
>>>his friend. *
>>>
>>>...............At the end of the same chapter, the Lord
tells
>>>Moses........
>>>
>>>*[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there
shall no man see
>>>me, and live.
>>>[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and
thou shalt
>>>stand upon a rock:
>>>[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by,
that I will
>>>put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with
my hand while I
>>>pass by:
>>>[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my
back parts_:
>>>but my face shall not be seen.*
>>>
>>>...........*_thou shalt see my back parts_*, and as
evidence that
>>>actually happened, ch 34 explains........
>>>
>>>*[34] But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with
him, he took
>>>the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake
unto the
>>>children of Israel that which he was commanded.
>>>[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that
the skin of
>>>_Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the vail upon his face
again, until he
>>>went in to speak with him.
>>>
>>>*...............That something miraculous had happened that
caused
>>>*_Moses' face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies what Moses
saw........
>>>
>>>*[5] And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and
stood in the
>>>do or of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and
they both came
>>>forth.
>>>[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet
among you, I
>>>the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and
will speak unto
>>>him in a dream.
>>>_[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all
mine house.
>>>[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently,
and not in
>>>dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he
behold:_ wherefore
>>>then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?*
>>>
>>>.........Notice that he distinguishes between Moses and
those of lesser
>>>faith. And he clearly points out that Moses beheld the
*_similitude of
>>>the LORD_*.
>>>
>>> So Perry, would you not admit that this clearly shows that
Moses saw
>>>God? That Moses did not s ee God's face is of little
consequence. Moses
>>>probably never saw the bottom of God's feet either.
But....according to
>>>the Bible he certainly saw God.
>>>
>>> After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do
you still
>>>think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2.........
>>>
>>>/_*And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and
the glory
>>>of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*_/
>>>
>>>..........contradicts the Bible? I certainly don't see any
>>>contradiction, especially since the Bible quotes the Lord
as speaking
>>>*face to face* to Moses. Are you clear on that,
Perry........or do you
>>>continue to believe it is impossible to see God?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dave,
>>>>
>>>> You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does
show that man can
>>>>see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be
clear on this, too.
>>>>
>>>>Perry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't
alarmed by these
>>>>>contradictions?*
>>>>>
>>>>>DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't view them as
contradictions,
>>>>>Perry. Instead, we view *your* understanding to be
in error. Clearly
>>>>>the Bible does show that man can see God. If you
fail to understand
>>>>>that concept, then you will never understand why
LDS folks don't see it
>>>>>as a contradiction.
>>>>>
>>>>>Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Dave,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but
he can in the PoGP!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my
face: for there shall
>>>>>>no man see me, and live.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>/_/*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he
talked with him, and
>>>>>>the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore
Moses could endure his
>>>>>>presence.*/_/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dave, how can this be? The revelation to JS in
the PoGP contradicts
>>>>>>the Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my
opinion, of course! And that
>>>>>>is t hat if the moses of mormonism saw the
mormon god's face and lived,
>>>>>>we must have a different god, for no one can
see the face of the God
>>>>>>of the Bible and live!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have read only the first few verses of the
book of Moses in the
>>>>>>Pearl of Greast Price (one of the mormon
standard works consisting of
>>>>>>revelation to JS from god, right?), and already
have found two glaring
>>>>>>contradictions!!! Why should I read further?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't
alarmed by these
>>>>>>contradictions?*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Perry
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
----------
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