Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:31:11 -0800

The tense is simply as to relation to the action.
The action is past tense.
So what is the problem?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have Jay Green's interlinear  (among others).  He is a big fan of the textus receptus.   At any rate  -  I think Bill's point  (correct me if I am wrong,  Bill) is that the KJ translation gives us a past tense translation of a present tense participle. There is no good reason for doing such and in that context, it is a "mistake."  if you don't care to see it as a "mistake,"  certainly one is forced to agree that it is a less accurate translation (the past tense) than the actual present tense.  In the English, this past tense translation circumvents ENTIRELY the impact of  sanctification  as ongoing event by another in our lives.  
 
JD  
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

What greek text is that?
Not NA 27 or 26!

LOL
Watch out Dean you have now been labeled a dreaded "Works salvationist"
It is not very far (or long I might add) before you will become a Kentucky Baptist!
And please do not use the Lame excuse that you are Wesleyan as such trivial matters are no concern to JD

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
The greek text (the holy and inspired KJV greek text, by the way) says "He has perfected FOR EVER then that are (being) sanctified"  Heb 10:14.  
 
One of several differences between your side of the fence and ours is bound to the fact that you (all) do not have a clue as to what it means ti "have been perfected by another  --   namely Jesus Christ."   How could you.   You are a committed works salvationist.  
 
cd: Am I to understand you to mean that one doesn't learn and grow-one is already perfect?
 
Your question above is an illustration of this very point.   A couple of questions  --   which, of course,  your side will not answer:    do you deny that the KJ greek text says what it says?    When you see the word "perfected,"  do you think it always includes the concepts of growth and maturity?    the KJV actually states that we have been "perfected for ever."  Do you argue that this translation is in error?  If not  --  and how could you  --  on what theological grounds could this statement be true since the action of sanctification is not yet completed?  
 
JD
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Moore <cd_moore@earthlink.net>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:15:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 11/21/2005 11:22:52 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

They are not "being perfected."  They are being sanctified.   I believe that "sactification" is the work of God within the believer  --  its finale is expressed [in part]  in a visible difference  (holiness) between "us" and "them."   In this example, we are passively involved to the glory of God.   Perfection, in this scripture, is a done deal   --  Him dying ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME  for us. 
 
JD
cd: Am I to understand you to mean that one doesn't learn and grow-one is already perfect?
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:17:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
KJV For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
 
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation   For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Youngs Literal translation for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified
ASV For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
 
NKJV For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NIV because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
 
If Christ's offering gives eternal perfection, as the first half of the verse claims, why does the rest of the verse say that we are BEING 'perfected'?
 


Dean Moore <cd_moore@earthlink.net> wrote:
cd: see the Bottom of page.
----- Original Message -----
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 11/21/2005 10:08:48 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

 
 
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:27:06 -0700 "Taylor" <wmtaylor@plains.net> writes:
Since the theme has been that of perfection, I thought I would keep it going with a look at Hebrews 10.14. The KJV says, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." A cursory reading of this verse may leave one with the impression that the "perfected" are those whose sanctification is complete: they are, after all, "sanctified," aren't they? Well, not if one's concern is with holding true to the "pure" word of God as set forth in the "Received Text." In the Greek this participle is a present tense in the passive voice. If one were desiring to reflect that voice in his translation and thereby hold true to the grammar and intent of the "majority text," this participle would best be translated as "those who are being sanctified," thereby reflecting a sanctification which is passive (i.e.., the action is being pe rformed by someone other than the subject) and not yet complete. Hence according to this, Christ has perfected forever (a completed action), not those who are presently sanctified (also a completed action), but those who are in the process of being sanctified: a fairly significant difference, it seems to me.  Bill
 
So this is an example of how the KJV is in error Bill?
IMO the error is with your understanding rather than with the text of the KJV translation.  You have read something into the text that is not there and have made a straw man to knock down.  The word sanctification does not necessarily mean an action being performed;  the same word is used in 1 Cor 7:14 for an unbelieving wife who is sanctified (set apart, consecrated) by the faith of her husband.  In this sense "sanctified" means something entirely different from what you describe. So IOW "By one offering Jesus has perfected for ever them that are set apart, consecrated (or sanctified)." 
 
I have a huge banner that says the same thing you banner say on 1 John 2:4-I will send  you a picture of it sis :-)
                                         judyt                                       
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
                              is a liar (1 John 2:4)

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