why did it take a Dutch Catholic so long to get it right?
The Textual Critics still do not get it, we are up to the 27th CORRECTED edition aren't we? But that does not bother you does it? The KJV bothers you you must replace it with another text, then you can have a New Version to go with your New Theology! God has used that Book for hundreds of years while others come & go! If you are so concerned with time: Where was your beloved Depraved critical text during that time?
The ROOT of the PROBLEM
MINORITY TEXT
The minority text has been tampered with and is corrupted.
Whole verses are omitted
Rife with contradictions
consists of the 5% "minority" of existing texts
Dean Burgeon said "I am utterly disinclined to believe, so grossly improbable does it seem - that at the end of 1800 years 995 copies out of every thousand, suppose, will prove untrustworthy; and that the one, two, three, four or five which remain, whose contents were till yesterday as good as unknown, will be found to have retained the secret of what the Holy Spirit originally inspired."
The minority text has been tampered with and is corrupted.
Whole verses are omitted
Rife with contradictions
consists of the 5% "minority" of existing texts
Dean Burgeon said "I am utterly disinclined to believe, so grossly improbable does it seem - that at the end of 1800 years 995 copies out of every thousand, suppose, will prove untrustworthy; and that the one, two, three, four or five which remain, whose contents were till yesterday as good as unknown, will be found to have retained the secret of what the Holy Spirit originally inspired."
MINORITY TEXT CORRUPTIONS
There were many corrupters of God's word even as the New testament was being written.
2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Doctrines in the W&H text was watered down, attacked & tampered with by heretics.
"Heretics invented readings and they did circulate for a time, but they were rejected by the church under guidance of God" Bruce M. Metzger, CANON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Oxford, Claredon Press, 1987.p 25
The manuscripts of the minority text come from Egypt. (remember Egypt is a type of the world)
THE REVISION OF THE MINORITY TEXT WAS A FABRICATED TEXT
There were many corrupters of God's word even as the New testament was being written.
2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Doctrines in the W&H text was watered down, attacked & tampered with by heretics.
"Heretics invented readings and they did circulate for a time, but they were rejected by the church under guidance of God" Bruce M. Metzger, CANON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Oxford, Claredon Press, 1987.p 25
The manuscripts of the minority text come from Egypt. (remember Egypt is a type of the world)
THE REVISION OF THE MINORITY TEXT WAS A FABRICATED TEXT
A conglomeration of Minority texts; the Westcott-Hort Greek text is a fabrication devised by two Mary Worshiping Infidels, who among other things, tried to communicate with the dead. Understand; theirs was not a text that ever really existed anywhere before 1880! It was a conglomerated text that was constructed by fabrication at that time.
"What we are just now insisting upon is only the depraved text of codices A, B, C, D, -- especially of B, D, and Aleph. And because this is a matter which lies at root of the whole controversy, ... B, D , and Aleph (Sinaiticus), are three of the most scandalously corrupt copies extant: -- exhibit the most shamefully mutilated texts which are anywhere to be met with: -- have become, by whatever process (for their history is wholly unknown), the depositories of the largest amount of fabricated readings, ancient blunders, and intentional perversions of Truth, -- which are discoverable in any known copies of the Word of GOD." Burgeon Revision Revised p.15, 16
Wescott & Hort were not the kind of men God would use.
Contains the Apocrypha in the text
This false greek text (Wescott Hort text) is used in virtually all new versions and is the same corrupt text as the JW's New World Translation.
MAJORITY TEXT
The overwhelming number of manuscripts 95%
Majority text (Recieved text) came from the east (Antioch) where the FIRST christians came from (see Acts 11:26)
Why do the Majority texts from far & wide; different times & from different areas agree with each other? The only satisfactory answer is that the Lord must have been involved in the preservation & transmission of these texts.
The most remarkable feature of the Majority text is it's marvelous agreement.
The overwhelming number of manuscripts 95%
Majority text (Recieved text) came from the east (Antioch) where the FIRST christians came from (see Acts 11:26)
Why do the Majority texts from far & wide; different times & from different areas agree with each other? The only satisfactory answer is that the Lord must have been involved in the preservation & transmission of these texts.
The most remarkable feature of the Majority text is it's marvelous agreement.
AVAILABLE EVIDENCE
More than 5000 Extant (existing) Mss. (manuscripts) that contain all or a part of the NT.
Quotes in Lexionaries (Church lessons)
Quotes in commentaries and Patristic writings of church fathers
many of these were available to the KJV Translators
More than 5000 Extant (existing) Mss. (manuscripts) that contain all or a part of the NT.
Quotes in Lexionaries (Church lessons)
Quotes in commentaries and Patristic writings of church fathers
many of these were available to the KJV Translators
EXAMPLES OF MINORITY TEXT
VATICANUS found in the Vatican Library in 1481 AD
It is missing: Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 46:28, Psalms 106-138, Matthew 16:2-3, The Pauline Pastoral Epistles, Hebrews 9:14-13:25, AND Revelation.
(can you think of why these in particular, might be missing? Hint Roman Catholic)
In the gospels alone, it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses and 748 whole sentences
Was rejected by the KJV translators as corrupted.
Contains the apocrypha interspersed.
VATICANUS found in the Vatican Library in 1481 AD
It is missing: Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 46:28, Psalms 106-138, Matthew 16:2-3, The Pauline Pastoral Epistles, Hebrews 9:14-13:25, AND Revelation.
(can you think of why these in particular, might be missing? Hint Roman Catholic)
In the gospels alone, it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses and 748 whole sentences
Was rejected by the KJV translators as corrupted.
Contains the apocrypha interspersed.
SINAITICUS found in 1844 in a trash pile in St. Catherine's Monastery by Tischendorf. It contains nearly all of the New Testament plus the "Shepherd of Hermes" and the "Epistle of Barnabas" IN the New Testament.
John Burgeon says "On many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40 words are dropped through very carelessness. Letters, words or even whole sentences are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately canceled; while that gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same words as the clause preceding, occurs no less that 115 times in the New Testament."
John Burgeon says "On many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40 words are dropped through very carelessness. Letters, words or even whole sentences are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately canceled; while that gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same words as the clause preceding, occurs no less that 115 times in the New Testament."
On nearly every page of the manuscript there are corrections and
revisions, done by 10 different people. Some of these corrections were made about the same time that it was copied, but most of them were made in the 6th or 7th century.
(Would your bank accept a check with 10 different signatures?)
One very curious note is found on page 1512 it seems to complain about a change to the text of Hebrews 1:3 "Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!"
(Would your bank accept a check with 10 different signatures?)
One very curious note is found on page 1512 it seems to complain about a change to the text of Hebrews 1:3 "Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!"
The critic Phillip Mauro said "From these facts, therefore, we deduce: first that the impurity of the Codex Sinaiticus, in every part of it, was fully recognized by those who were best acquainted with it, and that from the very beginning until the time when it was finally cast aside as worthless for any practical purpose."
"It must be confessed, indeed, that the Codex Sinaiticus abounds with similar errors of the eye and pen, to an extent not
unparalleled, but happily rather unusual in documents of first-rate importance; so that Tregelles has freely pronounced that "the state of the text, as proceeding from the first scribe, may be regarded as very rough" (N.T. Part ii p.2). Letters and words, even whole sentences, are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately cancelled: while that gross blunder technically known as Homoeoteleuton, whereby a clause is as the clause preceding, occurs no less than 115 times in the N.T., though the defect is often supplied by a more recent hand." (A Full Collation of the Codex Sinaiticus with the Received Text of the New Testament by F.H. Scrivener Page 15 Introduction)
These TWO Mss. are at varience with one another, they disagree amongst themselves over 2000 times in the gospels alone!
The Word of God disqualifies this kind of disagreeing witnesses Mark 14:55 -59
The Word of God disqualifies this kind of disagreeing witnesses Mark 14:55 -59
It is more like Satans witnesses
A good example of the corruption of the Bible CORRECTORS is Mark 16 where both Vaticanus & Sinaiticus leave out the last 12 verses. There are 620 extant Mss. that contain this section Mark 16. NO OTHER Mss. leave this out! The evidence is 618 to 2 for the section telling about the ressurection of Jesus. Yet, these 2 corruptions that are called the "Oldest & Best Manuscripts" end with Jesus in the grave & the disciples Fearing. In defiance of the combined 618 witnesses we are to put our trust in 2 horribly misfigured Mss. "covered all over with blots" as Burgeon has stated.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I do not know why you go off on such a tangent? You are the one who believes this if you believe that the KJV translation "is the only one for me," What was used for English speaking folk before the KJV? Which edition of the received text IS the correct one and why did it take a Dutch Catholic so long to get it right? And which edition of the KJV is the right one? The one with all those other books in it, or the Protestant version? And why did Erasmus add ACts 9:6a? You above all people know full well that this does not appear in any greek text ? And what about the last six verses of Revelations? Erasmus couldn't find those words. What is of more value, here -- the actual greek text (received text) or the man-made translation of that text?Regarding W & H - you have apparently forgotten what I said about them?I believe that the written message has always been there. I also believe that God's has never ceased to work His will nor the Power of the Indwelling to have ever been made void.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:01:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
Just think for all those years the church did not have the word of God just a Single Man-Made translation. UNTIL (1881) God found himself TWO RCC Heretics named Westcott & Hort to RESTORE the Original intent & text! Sort of like a Christianized verison of the JO Smith story!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Judy, I spoke of a single edition, not a single-man made edition. I don't care how many translated it, and neither do you. the KJV is a production of the will and purpose of mankind. It is a man-made translation. But throw out the MSS. That is certainly your preference.
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:07:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
Then childishness has taken a lot of ppl to heaven and blessed generations for more than 400yrs.It wasn't a single man JD, it was 46 different teams that were sanctified or set apart and workedprayerfully together - so why such vehement opposition from your corner?On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:01:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:It is not child like faith that disgards the MSS and preaches dependence on a single man-made translation, it is childishness. :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Moore <cd_moore@earthlink.net>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:40:12 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
----- Original Message -----Sent: 11/25/2005 10:15:36 AMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisorYou misrepresent the B side of the room. The final authority is what God wants me to see as I read a given text ..................... not what a translator wants me to believe. You want to toss the MSS and trust a given man-made edition of the bible without personal verification -- be my guest. I would be an ignorant man to do so ................. not to mention the limiting effect it would have on what God is doing or teaching me in my life.jdcd: My recommendation for this solution is to have a simple child-like trust in the KJ-This type of trust invokes God and you will understand far more then what you glean from the Greek.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 17:10:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
cd: This is really scary in leu of level of debate on the Greek and English
languages. The Bible say a child can understand the Gospel-yet side B of
this room are concerned about the present tense and passive voices of a
dead language to explain the Gospel and the brethren have to go there to
help them understand-No wonder Jesus marveled that God hid it from the wise
and gave it to childrenThe CREED of the Alexandrian CultThere is no final authority but God.Since God is a Spirit, there is no final authority that can be seen, heard, read, felt, or handled.Since all books are material, there is no book on this earth that is the final and absolute authority on what is right and what is wrong: what constitutes truth and what constitutes error.There WAS a series of writings one time ( called the Originals) which, IF they had all been put into a BOOK as soon as they were written the first time, WOULD HAVE constituted an infallible and final authority by which to judge truth and error.However, this series of writings was lost, and the God who inspired them was unable to preserve their content through Bible-believing Christians at Antioch (Syria), where the first Bible teachers were (Acts 13:1), and where the first missionary trip originated (Acts 13:1-52), and where the word 'Christian originated (Acts 11:26).So, God chose to ALMOST preserve them through Gnostics and philosophers from Alexandria, Egypt, even though God called His Son OUT of Egypt (Matthew 2), Jacob OUT of Egypt (Genesis 49), Israel OUT of Egypt (Exodus 15), and Joseph's bones OUT of Egypt (Exodus 13).So, there are two streams of Bibles: the most accurate (though, of course, there is no final, absolute authority for determining truth and error: it is a matter of "preference") are the Egyptian translations from Alexandria, Egypt, which are "almost the originals," although not quite.The most inaccurate translations were those that brought about the German Reformation (Luther, Zwingli, Boehier, Zinzendorf, Spener, etc.) and the worldwide missionary movement of the English-speaking people: the Bible that Sunday, Torrey, Moody, Finney, Spurgeon, Whitefleld, Wesley, and Chapman used.But we can "tolerate these if those who believe in them will tolerate US. After all. Since there is NO ABSOLUTE AND FINAL AUTHORITY that anyone can read, teach, preach. or handle, the whole thing is a matter of "PREFERENCE." You may prefer what you prefer, and we will prefer what we prefer; let us live in peace, and if we cannot agree on anything or everything, let us all agree on one thing: THERE IS NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE, WRITTEN AUTHORITY OF GOD ANYWHERE ON THIS EARTH.
Dean Moore <cd_moore@earthlink.net> wrote:cd: This is really scary in leu of level of debate on the Greek and English
languages. The Bible say a child can understand the Gospel-yet side B of
this room are concerned about the present tense and passive voices of a
dead language to explain the Gospel and the brethren have to go there to
help them understand-No wonder Jesus marveled that God hid it from the wise
and gave it to children-Point-What do the teachings of Gods words instruct
one to do-Then live by that-for you will be judged by that standard- if the
heart is true to the intent of wanting truth-the proud will never see it
anyway.
> [Original Message]
> From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> Date: 11/24/2005 6:40:45 PM
> Subject : Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
>
> Bill wrote:
> > You highlight the problem with leaving off the
> > present passive aspect of this participle, David;
>
> I have not left off the present passive aspect. In English, we don't
> conjugate the participle this way, but the phrase is clear enough for
those
> of us who understand English. It carries over the present tense and
passive
> voice just fine.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > hence loosing track of the unfinished- or
> > incompleteness of it.
>
> You are reading to much into first year textbook definitions, Bill. I
> expect more from you.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Do you presume to have finished the race,
> > while waiting for the likes of Paul to catch up?
>
> No, of course not. My comments to Judy make this clear, and illustrate
why
> this thread is so ridiculous. I agree with you about the reality that
> sanctificat ion is an ongoing process. My comments to you concerned the
> exe gesis of this one passage. Your question to me here misses my point
> entirely. Regardless of how I answer your question (and you already know
my
> answer from past posts), the text you exegete is uneffected by the
answer.
> In other words, your question is irrelevant, so why waste the time asking
> it?
>
> Present tense passive voice in English is the same as present tense
passive
> voice in Greek. Why are you trying to make out like it is something
> different? It almost seems like you are presenting a situation where
you,
> as a s tudent of Greek, have personal private knowledge that others lack.
Do
> you really think they are handicapped in understanding this passage
because
> of their lack of formal education in the Greek language?
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
kn o w how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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