Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore

[Judy Taylor]

There is more history to this than you are considering.  If you want a more objective historian's viewpoint who still sides against Calvin, consider Schaff's History of the Christian Church.  You can read his treatment at http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm   I did go to and read from this website David but Servetus is not the only problem I have with Calvin.  There were other floggings, banishings, beheadings, and burnings He had between 22-34 women burned at the stake because he blamed them for a plague while he was head of Geneva.   DM: The facts you mention below about what Calvin wrote are mixed with fact and fiction.  For example, yes, Calvin did write that Servetus, should he come to Geneva, would not depart alive if his authority meant anything.  However, he did not direct this toward Servetus, but to Farel, seven years before Servetus came to Geneva.  He wrote it as a warning that Servetus should not come to Geneva.  There also was a debate that Servetus setup with Calvin, but when Calvin showed up at risk to his own life for the debate, Servetus did not show.  There are a lot of things Servetus did that is not being considered here.   Schaff calls them old friends in their fight against the rcc.  It does sound as though Servetus did some devious things but Calvin was no better, didn't he turn Servetus in to the Roman inquisitors by sending some of his writings to them?   Something else to consider is that Calvin had no authority to do anything to Servetus.  Calvin was not even a citizen of Geneva at the time.  He also was out of favor with the Council himself.  Calvin himself suffered banishment from Geneva.    Then why does he take responsibility for having this and that done if he had no authority to do it?   Servetus was attempting to capitalize on this political situation with Calvin to discredit Calvin.  Just ask yourself why Servetus lied so much to the Roman Catholic Church when they put him on trial, but in the court of Geneva, he is more truthful and argumentative, not disowning his position on the issues.   He probably misguidedly thought the Roman Inquisitors more dangerous than his old friend Calvin and didn't want to lose his life.  After being sentenced in Geneva he did the right thing in forgiving Calvin.   As for your comment about "the Spirit of Christ in action," you really have to consider culture and accepted philosophy at the time.    No, I don't believe "the culture" is ever an excuse for the actions of those professing Christ who are to be in but not of the world. The scriptures are the same in every generation.  We could say those who crucified Christ were just acting according to their culture also (the Romans) and the Jews manipulated them into it.   It is very easy for us to condemn him based upon our accepted wisdom.  But given different philosophical assumptions about when capital punishment is warranted, we could easily look at this differently had we lived in his culture.  It is kind of like the issue of polygamy, the error of which is more readily clear in our culture, but not in the culture of Abraham and David.   Murder is much worse than polygamy David.  We are only given one life and noone has the right to take it from us.  Especially in light of what happened to Cain.  Secular government and capital punishment is a whole other issue. In Calvin's case I believe his doctrine is probably as heretical as Servetus and it certainly has lasted a lot longer even to plaguing us today.         On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:39:58 -0500 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Dean wrote: > > -No I did not read the entire work-but as you know > > we can know a tree by its fruit-when A Saints plan > > and carries out a gruesome death of another Christian > > and later shows no remorse they have nothing that I > > want to study to find truth. > > Such a comment tells me that you do not understand the history of > Calvin. > Be careful not to rest your judgment of another on gossip.  I'm not > a fan of > Calvin, as you know, but he should be criticized fairly if he is > criticized, > not judged for what others have done in his name.  Most of Calvinism > today > stems from Calvin's student Beza, and much of it today is not > recognizable > in the writings of Calvin himself   I'm surprised that you take this stand David. There are handwritten letters by Calvin himself to this Farel person where he takes credit for the death of Servetus.  Later on he wrote a tract defending his evil actions.  There was one man an Anabaptist who wrote a tract defending Servetus, this man was not identified until after his death at which time his body was exhumed and burned.  Tell me, is this the Spirit of Christ in action??   > Dean wrote: > > No matter evil begets evil and two wrongs do not > > make a right.Here are a couple of questions you > > should answer: > > 1.Can J.Calvin be scripturally justified for putting > > Michael Servetus to death?   > Calvin never put Servetus to death.  He reported him to the > authorities, and > as a lawyer and theologian, he presented evidence in a court of law. >  The > Council of Geneva are the ones who put him to death.  In fact, he > had > already been convicted in Vienne where he was living under a false > name and > lied to authorities in a court of law about who he was.  He lied > about many > material facts, and then escaped prison when pretending to go to the > outhouse.   The above is what I would expect to hear from a dyed in the wool Calvinist.  Calvin is on record, he wrote to Farel that he had warned Servetus not to come to Geneva but if he did come Calvin would see to it that he didn't get out alive.  I'm not an authority on Servetus and it appears that he was a bit hysterical.  However, he discovered the pulmonary flow of blood from the heart through the lungs and left the medical world better off.  From my perspective, in light of scripture, Calvin left a theological mess along with a shameful legacy.   ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org   If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.